Hoarding Defensive Backs, A Tampa Bay Buccaneers Hobby
by Sander on Jul 1, 2011 12:00 PM EDT
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Raheem Morris, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers' head coach, was a defensive backs coach before his sudden promotion to defensive coordinator and later head coach. Perhaps this explains why the Bucs seem to have taken the attitude that hoarding defensive backs is a great idea. We already knew that the Bucs thought they couldn't "ever have enough cornerbacks". But somehow, they seem to think that more safeties is a good thing as well.
Look at the logjam the Bucs have created with young, talented but raw players at those positions. At cornerback, Ronde Barber and Aqib Talib are the clear starters, but with Myron Lewis, E.J. Biggers, and Elbert Mack the Bucs have three young cornerbacks behind them with game experience. And then there are D.J. Johnson, who spent most of the year on the practice squad, and seventh-round draft pick Anthony Gaitor. At safety, the Bucs have Sean Jones and Cody Grimm as starters with Tanard Jackson returning during the season. Behind them the Bucs have Corey Lynch and Larry Asante with playing experience, practice squad players Vince Anderson and Dominique Harris, as well as fifth-rounder Ahmad Black. That's a lot of young defensive backs.
This hoarding of young defensive backs allows the Bucs to create competition among less highly-touted players to improve everyone, and let the best players shine. Of course, that competition has somehow also gotten Elbert Mack significant playing time, so it's not exactly the most effective method.
Aside from competition elevating players, the Bucs also have a set of excellent defensive backs coaches in current head coach Raheem Morris and current actual DB coach Jimmy Lake, both of whom have coached up some obscure players and gotten them to play well. The combination of competition and quality coaching has allowed the Bucs to perform well as a pass defense even when missing their most talented players like Aqib Talib and Tanard Jackson.
With the league moving to a more pass-oriented style each season, it seems clear that a good pass defense is key to sustained success. To have a good pass defense the Bucs need quality defensive back play, and they have managed to get just that. But the trend so far has been to rely on young players that need to be coached up, instead of blue-chip talent or quality free agents. It has worked, but I wonder whether the Bucs can keep this up in the long run.
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Some of these guys will get cut or wind up on the practice squad though.
If Tanard is really back then you say bye bye to Corey Lynch. I think Black seems like a perfect slot corner in our scheme. He reminds me of Ronde in many way, just a bit slower. Don’t put him on the outside where he’s isolated, instead let him blitz or work short/intermediate zones in the slot or the middle of the field.
I also think we’ll be picking up some linebackers (Herzlich?) after lock out ends. And honestly, a few of the undrafted safties might be upgrades over some of our backups.
I doubt undrafted safeties are worth looking at
This was an incredibly weak safety class, and the ones that went undrafted are really the worst of an already bad bunch. Teams were reaching for safeties just so they could get some.
I think DeAndre McDaniel sounds like our kind of guy.
He does have some character concerns, but if they are examined and thought to be managable, then he sounds like a good fit. Rather weak in man coverage, but has terrific ball skills, terrific against the run, a force on special teams. Lot’s off expierence against stong competion.
The fact that he wasn't even drafted leads me to believe that the character concerns are legit
And given all the flak the Bucs have gotten for their off-field issues this offseason, I don’t think the front office is willing to take a risk on him.
Thank you
Some one finally like’s my guy
Ive been saying threw out the whole draft process we should get deandre mcdaniels ………
by RIP SEAN TAYLOR 21 on Jul 1, 2011 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
We have little to lose by bringing him in...
because he will create some camp competition. He could beat someone out – you never know.
Idk I'd hate to see us short-change someone by a loss of a reps who could use em
There’s alot of safety potential already on our roster, like last years WR position (and everyone of them fought hard.) I know Lynch is hungry, since he left his lunch in the endzone lol. Asante is a thumper, and needs some time with Rah to get his mind right; he could develop if we spent manhours into him. We got Black, who many said didn’t have enough range and size, and he’s got a chip on his shoulder to come up. And those are all the guys under Jones and TJack lol.
((b-town))
I do see your point...
but I’m not sure why we need to work with some guy for a couple of years, working him up and molding him, when you can just bring in another guy that is already there. That ugly “P” word raises its head again (potential). I believe if a player has enough skills, he will most likely beat out the guy that doesn’t.
Sometimes it seems like a waste of time and energy – energy that could be directed somewhere else. Competition in camp elevates the play of everybody. You are putting a lot of hope and time into somebody that might just leave when his opportunity (F/A $$) comes for him. I don’t want us to become the farm team for the rest of the NFL.
by Cracker Ball on Jul 2, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
This is a tough one..
I understand what you mean, we cant farm value everywhere (especially in a half-assed offseason). Seems like this guys biggest hurdle is his “briefcase face”. He play and his footage is mean, but that kind of ill-publicity will follow. I mean, when Blount punched that bigot , it was all over the National media. They slandered LGB hard, and in my mind, you call me a cracker and I’ma stick you in your mouth. And what he did, far worse.
Only thing this kid can do is try and walk on somewhere, and prove ppl wrong. Our image has been hit lately and its just a tought situation in my train of thought..
((b-town))
Talking crap on the football field is nothing new...
and I am surprised Blount took the bait, and let it fester inside him for the whole game, and then smack the guy after it was all over. We don’t really know what was said between them, when it was said, and who actually started it. I suppose it doesn’t matter.
What does matter is letting verbal attacks like that bounce off of you, and the maturity and mental toughness required to get there. I don’t want to see Blount climbing into the stands because some drunk idiot in PHI, NY or CLE shouts out something he doesn’t like.
Your 100% right man
I ain’t got to elaborate on it, your absolutely right. That message needs to circulated in every youth camp and school.
((b-town))
Is that a serious questioN?
“McDaniel reportedly choked his girlfriend, punched her in the head and chest, and pushed her down a flight of stairs, causing her to seek medical attention for “serious bodily injury”"
If teams had gotten the feeling that he was a good kid who just made a mistake, he would’ve been drafted. He wasn’t, which tells me a lot about how he’s viewed.
you just made me laugh with that statement
(notice i didn’t use an abbreviation to convey that info)
If you will it, dude, it is no dream.
Sarcastic question. Maybe I should invent a sarcastic face.
But I feel like if the event was as bad as the draftcountdown line you’re quoting makes it sound he wouldn’t have got off with PTI.
Actually there's not much in the press to balance against all the arrest report language.
But mocking the draft and others address the issue in a positive away.
Final Word: I understand he has had an off the field issue, but that was three years ago. He has been a model citizen ever since. He is a true leader on and off the field who has learned from his previous mistakes. Wants to be the best and is willing to put in the hard work to get there. Ball Hawking safeties who can also stop the run aren’t easy to come by. For that reason I think DeAndre McDaniel is the first SS prospect off the board in the early to mid 2nd round
It's fair to say it was just one incident years ago
And if he had been drafted somewhere in this week safety classes, I probably would’ve agreed. But there has to be a reason why he wasn’t drafted, and the only legitimate reason I can think of is either off-field issues or a failed medical.
Sure
Then again, Blount is still a really raw player, and that incident isn’t nearly as serious as McDaniels’
Young people can do some very stupid things...
and most deserve a second chance. I do not know the details of what he has done, but the rigors and discipline of NFL life might be just the thing he needs to straighten out his life. More importantly, he might have that it takes to make a great contribution to our team by solidifying a position. Player assessments can be wrong – look to Bowers.
Like you have personally said before – players can fit a system. Much like CB Kendrick Burney. Most would automatically say “He is too small and too slow”, so then he goes undrafted. Might be the perfect guy for a system that emphasizes tackling, zone play and simply keeping the guy in front of him.
by Cracker Ball on Jul 2, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
our secondary wasnt the problem...
Last season if my memory serves me correctly we finished the season ranked 7th in pass defense. And when you consider the fact that our pass-rush was one of worst in the league and we went multiple games without the services of our best DB’s (Jackson & Talib) that stat is even more impressive IMO. The more competition the better.
by ctd1977 on Jul 1, 2011 6:40 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
It is hard to say if that ranking was due to great secondary play...
or the fact that we were so incredibly easy to run on (5th worst in the NFL).
Look at rankings that work on a per-play basis
The Bucs do pretty decently in those, and those rankings are completely unaffected by how often they’re run on. If anything, being easy to run on should make them look worse than they are in those rankings as they adjust to stop the run.
Exactly...
If anything we should have be worst against the pass considering how we got gashed on the ground in 2010…I expect our run and pass defense to be much improved this year with the beef we added to our D-line…
by ctd1977 on Jul 1, 2011 7:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I would think the amazing success...
other teams had running against us would make the passing easier, as it was less necessary and more effective if we were concerned about stopping the run.
Run to set up the pass – if you will.
We usually would get a stop in the 4th when we needed it though
I don’t know the team’s mindset, but it seemed like “hey they can push us around for so long”.
((b-town))
We need to figure that out a little earlier...
like play # 1. The good defenses like PIT, BAL, etc. bring it all game long.
by Cracker Ball on Jul 2, 2011 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
For real
If we can stop the run, and stop it early, we’ll force them to be one dimensional. Once we can do consistantly, SB. There’s no denying it.
((b-town))
My opinion
Tanard jackson : Start when available , Best saftey in the NFC when playing/healthy , No one ballhawk/hit like this guy .
Sean jones : Just slap solid , Doesnt wow you but doesnt disapoint you either would like to see him pick alot of balls like he did with the browns but i wont complain …….
Cody grimm : I say he is a tweener when it comes to talent , Because he makes such great plays such as jump routes ( against bengals ) then gives up big plays ( against steelers ) , But is huge on 1st & 2nd down against the run a sure tackler , I would like to see him get snaps but not start maybe be one of our core sp teams players …..
Corey lynch : He gets his hands on the ball , He has that knack he intercept , football recover , blocks punts , he is critical to our team on both defense & sp team ……….
Ahmad black : I like the productivity in college & idc about the measurements , but due to this lockout he is going to have a monster 4 pre-season games to make the team & be an contributor ………………..
Others : i dont see asante , harris , or anderson beating out the likes of lynch or black or mccdaniels for the 5th saftey spot …..
Undrafted free agent : Deandre mcdaniels : I would say the same applies for him as black , but i am high on him i think he is very talented in could push sean jones for the starting spot ……………..
Comment : I just cant wait to get t-jack back in the secondary , Im so so on jones but competition is on the way , I really want grimm & lynch as the two second string safety’s , i hope we bring in mccdaniels so he in black can push jones for the starting spot ………..
by RIP SEAN TAYLOR 21 on Jul 1, 2011 7:52 PM EDT reply actions
As far as corners
We are good , But it would be great to bring in a NNAMDI ASOMUGHA or ANTONIO CROMARTIE to pair with AQUIB TALIB & move ronde barber to the slot , It would be nice to see our defensive backs get picks because of pressure as well as our defensive linemen get sacks because of coverage ……………………..
by RIP SEAN TAYLOR 21 on Jul 1, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions
?
Has there ever been a team that led the league in INT"S & SACKS ?
We always some where around the top 5 in interceptions every year
But
We have to get our sacks to sky rocket up ………………
by RIP SEAN TAYLOR 21 on Jul 1, 2011 8:10 PM EDT reply actions
I don't know
But if we’re getting sacks, and QB’s wanna be slick with the short pass, we’re getting rings yo. you know what I mean
((b-town))
If we dont win the Nnamdi sweepstakes...
And decided not to add a corner during free-agency I’d be fine with that decision. I really like Myron Lewis, he has the size and speed needed to match up well with the big WR’s we see in th NFL nowadays (especially in Atlanta). He did make some rookie mistakes last year but he also showed potential to be a solid corner opposite of Talib at the least. With that said, I’m sure Biggers will make him earn it. That’s the beauty of competition.
by ctd1977 on Jul 1, 2011 11:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
When they filled in for Talib
They did good I guess, because their numbers did help get that 7th rank pass def. But how much progress from then and now is null, hence the lockout. I want Joseph because Rah could probably take him to the next level. Nnamdi won’t offer us a spot for the next 5 years, as the statistics insinuate.
((b-town))
If we seek out a CB in free-agency...
I would actually prefer Joseph or Cromartie over Namdi. They may not be the player he is, but to pay one guy THAT much money, even a lock down CB like Namdi, allocates too much $ to one guy.
I mean, we could have CB Jonathan Joseph AND LB Stephen Tulloch for the price of one Namdi.
by Cracker Ball on Jul 2, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Nnamdi will be to expensive...
I agree 100%. There will be a bidding war for this guys services and even though we have the money IMO its not smart to tie it all up in 1 guy. Especially when we have so many young promising players who will be looking for new contracts in the next couple years. If we decide to bring in a corner I’d choose Joseph. He’s more economical, he can turn and run with any receiver in the league, and he’s a good tackler. Not to mention, as someone stated he may even get better here playing in our Tampa 2 system under Morris. Tulloch’s name was also mentioned, I’d love to bring him in as well; he’s a beast that plays absolutely blows people up. He also plays with a lot of emotion which Ruud never did. I’d take these two players in a NY second of Nnamdi.
by ctd1977 on Jul 2, 2011 11:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Look around the boards though
Alot of teams have caught on to Joseph. They realize that Nnamdi isn’t a long-term answer and Cromartie can’t remember his kids names let alone a new defense. I’m starting to worry that Joseph’s price might become overinfluated since he’s the only long-term bright player. If Jonathan price is outrageous, I hope Dom walks. Instead, get a big time FA LB. I’m totally with a good name LB, Tulloch, Sims being brought in. for sure
((b-town))
If Joseph prices himself out of a job in TB, there’s always Eric Wright from Cleveland. He’s probably not quite as good as Joseph, but with Morris teaching him he would likely be a very solid addition to the DBs. He would also come cheaper, allowing more money to be spent elsewhere.
Honestly though, if the price works out, I’d love to see both Wright AND Joseph picked up. That way it’ll be more palatable to part ways with Aqib Talib if it’s deemed necessary.
There's no way the Bucs pick up two cornerbacks in free agency
There’s only so many roster spots to go around, and they want to have spots for Talib, Ronde, Myron Lewis, E.J. Biggers and probably Anthony Gaitor too.
That is what I don't get...
How (or why) should you “want” a roster spot for somebody?
Well, I would “want” the best 53 players at their respective positions, no matter who selected them, who wants a pet project, or whos nephew they are. It sounds like you are implying that TB brass have already decided the above players will make the final roster – even if out played.
I think the Bucs want to keep young, talented players with a future, yes
And are not going to sign free agents that will force them to cut those talented players to make roster space. With that in mind, I can see room for one free agent cornerback on the roster, not two.
The practice squad would be a great place for Gaitor...
if he is oozing with potential, but not the active roster. Find and sign a impact player that can contribute right now (like Joseph, Cromartie or Wright at CB, Eric Weddle or Quentin Mikell at S) and really make a legitimate division champ and playoff run in 2011.
Just my 2 cents…
Gaitor I’m not sold on just yet. With that being said, if he does have potential then let him try and beat someone out in camp. Same with Biggers. If they can’t beat out Wright and Joseph then let them go somewhere else. With Talib probably not being back next year (whether through a jail sentence, suspension, or being cut because of off-the-field distractions), and Ronde likely retiring, we’ll need solid corners to replace them.
Wright and Joseph as starters, with Lewis or Biggers comin in for 3 or 4 DB sets would be a pretty solid grouping.
You always want the best players
But I’m talking about what the Bucs are actually going to do: they are not going to bring in two free agents with this many young, talented players on the roster. Because they think they have enough talent on the roster to win now and in the future at that position, and if they are going to spend, they’ll spend elsewhere.
Then spend on the OL and LB positions...
Would love to see Stephen Tulloch here in Ruuds spot. Tyson Clabo, Jared Gaither or even Doug Free at RT and we would be good to go. I’m thinking there must be somebody else we have that could step up and be adequate at OG. Much easier to play than either T position.
by Cracker Ball on Jul 3, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
This
Asomugha will demand too much and he’ll end up in Dallas or DC or some other place that is willing to destroy their cap for years. That means smart teams will target Joseph and he’ll be able to name his price. Cromartie will also get more than he’s worth.
All of that makes me want to just pass on CB FA’s altogether this year but as others have said the problem is that Talib may be unavailable in 2012 and Ronde will more than likely retire. That leaves us with Biggers and either whatever rookie we draft or whomever we get in free agency next year or both. Lots of pressure in that situation though, with Lewis and Gaiter our only backups worth mentioning.
Time to start praying…
If you will it, dude, it is no dream.
Johnathan Joseph is probably my favorite guy on the free agency market
Good player, still young and shouldn’t cost an obscene amount of money.
But I don’t think the Bucs are going to make a play for a cornerback in free agency. Not as long as they have Talib.
The problem is...
we may only have Talib for this year. Next year – who knows?
Having Talib now is not a reason to stop seeking improvement for the other side. Because of the new CBA, and the possibility of 4th year players being available, I think this F/A crop could be one of the biggest and best in NFL history, so waiting is a mistake.
Ruud is an example of why you shouldn’t do that. We have been actively talking about replacing him for 2 off-seasons and may have not really done it yet. Waiting to see what happens leaves you completely unprepared for some possibilities.
Talib AND Barber might be gone...
We’re talking two starters maybe on their way out. Next years draft, supposed solid with CB, is our only answer if we dont pursue FA. But Joseph could be a plug-n-play.
With Ruud I feel like we’ve kind of strung him along, give us another good year, and you might get a contract. I mean one year, he was on the top#10 tackler list with the best of em.
((b-town))
Very Similar to Dungy/McKay
As you can remember Tony Dungy and Rich McKay together constantly found and developed cornerbacks. Names like Donnie Abraham, Rhonde Barber, the forgotten Al Harris, Brian Kelly, and Dwight Smith. Its a tried and true formula to always use a mid or late round pick on a corner as you can never have to many quality corners. Morris and Dominick certainly have prefer a different type of corner than Dungy’s traditional Cover/Tampa 2. However, just like them they identify late round talent are coach them up. The person getting lost in the shuffle is Jimmy Lake, the Bucs however have a long history of great secondary coaches starting with Herm Edwards, Mike Tomlin, and Raheem Morris.
Yup
Its always been our historical niche. I’m proud of our consistant knowledge and advantage we have in that department.
((b-town))
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