Does Raheem Morris deserve to be fired if The Panthers sweep the Buccaneers?
by LeeCaz on Nov 30, 2011 10:08 AM EST
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This is the question that I have been pondering since the debacle last week. I don't think I really thought the Panthers had a chance of bypassing us until I saw that sloppy excuse for a game in Tennessee. A finish behind Carolina in the division means we took a major step backward. That team was abysmal last season. To think that they have bypassed us in team development is infuriating. Of course, they have Cam Newton, and the absence of Peyton Manning has shown what an incredible difference a good QB can make on a bad team.
Gruden was fired for much less. Of course, patience had worn thin with him so it isn't even close to the same situation. The more I think about it, the more I think that if they sweep us then Morris needs to go, and Dominik needs a stern talking to. This team could easily be in playoff contention if we had added two or three free agents at key positions.
Strictly adhering to "the plan" was a mistake. I'm sure the original plan didn't predict the new labor agreement and one of the best free agent classes in history. To only walk away from that bounty with a punter is unforgivable. There also seems to be a serious disconnect with front office personnel's evaluation of on field talent. Quincy Black did not deserve that contract, and his play has actually gotten worse. There were lots of linebackers in free agency that could have come in and outplayed Black. Same goes for Biggers (although Morris get's a pass on that one. I agree he showed enough last year to warrant a good hard look).
Either way, this franchise is in major meltdown mode. A last place finish in the division after such a promising season last year (albeit with a much easier schedule) should be the death knell for the current regime. As I've said for awhile now, not every team can emulate Green Bay's strategy. It took some great drafts and quite a bit of luck for them to end up where they are roster wise right now. Don't we think that if every team could just draft players and never have to shell out big bucks for free agents that they would? Of course they would. It's a great way to run a football team IF you draft lights out and don't mind rebuilding for a couple of years.
Right now we're seeing what happens when you don't draft lights out. We're seeing why the Green Bay Packers are the exception and not the rule. We're seeing why 30 other teams realize that if they want to win they need to have the best possible players playing at every position, and that sometimes you have to admit weakness and take drastic steps to improve yourselves with free agent acquisitions. By drastic steps I don't mean signing a safety, a punter, and the Eagles 5th WR. This is getting a little long, so if you want to keep reading, read more after the jump. Otherwise, here's a poll for you:
I'm getting away from Morris, and focusing more on Dominik here, but Morris will be the first to fall. Dominik has shown enough to earn himself next year no matter what. He isn't going anywhere. So, we're left to wonder whether or not Morris will be hung out to dry for the 2011 season. Don't get me wrong, he hasn't done anything to deserve to stay. A horrible defensive scheme, absolutely atrocious team discipline on the field, and questionable game time decisions all lead me to believe he doesn't deserve to be an NFL head coach. I certainly won't be sad to see him go if they choose to fire him.
I'm just saying that many fans seem to think that Raheem is responsible for the lack of success this season, and while that is partially true, I believe the majority of the blame lies at the feet of Mark Dominik. Of course that blame can only be assigned if he is indeed being given an open check book by the Glazer family like he says. If he is being hamstringed by ownership then he has done a fairly good job of squeezing talent out of the dollars he has to work with. I think the lesson we should learn with this experiment called "the plan" so far, is that nine times out of ten, you get what you pay for (with the exception of outside linebacker's named Quincy Black).
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I should say that hopefully we beat Carolina on Sunday and this becomes a pointless post.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." ~ Mark Twain
I said no, but I wouldn't really justify it with those excuses.
I say no because it was never a 3 year process. Dominik has completely stripped the team and re-built. Carolina, while young, did not go that route, not to mention having the first overall pick which helped. I say give Morris at LEAST another year if not two. I don’t think he’s been perfect, far from it, but I also don’t believe he has had the chance. I said before the season that it would look like we were taking a step back because of a more difficult schedule and that 6-10 was more likely than 10-6 and that 5-11 was more likely than 11-5. They need more pieces, there is no question. Whether they can add those in one year and still have patience with Raheem is another.
I DO think we can beat Carolina and I DO think that if we lose both, there is a good chance Morris is gone.
Formerly UNFNole
If we are balancing coaching credits and debits on whether or not to keep him
He seems to have more debits. Defense and team discipline (penalites) aren’t overcome by any of his credits If he swallows his pride and gives up the defense that would be a different story, but he has said he won’t.
Carolina is almost as young as we are, so I’m not so sure they didn’t strip it down as much as we did.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." ~ Mark Twain
Carolina has more core players than we did.
At the end of the 08 season, our best players were older guys such as Brooks, Barber(still around), Garcia, Galloway. I had no problem going the route they did after Gruden got fired. The players got too old, we had underperfoming players (Clayton, Adams), and holes everywhere else. The plan to me was going well up until this offseason when they ignored the free agency and being complacent from last yr thinking our best players will carry the team again and the rookies can make an impact. The successful teams have a plan B and clearly we didn’t have a plan B.
Carolina still have players there who are in their prime such as Steve Smith, D Will, Jon Stewart, Charles Johnson, Beason, Gross, Gamble, ect. They didn’t need to completely strip the team down, they were better than their 2-14 record but for whatever reason things just went bad for them. A new coach and a franchise qb was enough to get it turned around for them so yeah it is expected for them to be on a faster rebuilding pace.
by Brian Ahmed on Nov 30, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
I think the Bucs beat Carolina at least once, if not twice
But if they can’t even do that, then Raheem is going to be in trouble.
I hope you're right.
I did go ahead and pick up Jonathon Stewart off waivers this week in fantasy. Hopefully he and DeAngelo don’t abuse us, but I’m a little scared of that trio facing this run defense after last week.
Luckily they are almost equally as inept at stopping the run. As long as we don’t get behind and Blount is a factor we should be in both games till the end.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." ~ Mark Twain
Carolina and the Bucs are similar in a lot of ways
I expect a lot of ground and pound this week. The run defense is a liability on both squads.
A defense ranked #31 does not inspire confidence in one's defensive coordinator. Any head coach knows this: own up to it, Raheem- hire a full time DC and put your full focus on ONE of your jobs.
by RookTakesYou on Nov 30, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
Can be a fun game.
I expect both teams too move the ball at will and score some points not based on either of us having great offense but both having terrible defenses. I guess it comes down to which qb makes the least mistakes. Please Freeman as bad of a seaon you are having don’t get outplayed by a rookie.
I think that we'll win this week
But I expect that they’ll learn from the experience and beat us in Charlotte on week 16.
A defense ranked #31 does not inspire confidence in one's defensive coordinator. Any head coach knows this: own up to it, Raheem- hire a full time DC and put your full focus on ONE of your jobs.
by RookTakesYou on Nov 30, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
I think he needs to go even if we win out all our games
Now I don’t think he WOULD be fired under that scenario. I just think the play has been so incredibly bad this season that he should go.
Yugly.
I agree with you!! Rah needs to go regardless.
I dont care if he wins out or not…
East Coast Fan
by Bucfan on Dec 1, 2011 12:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
We have come out playing hard the past couple years with our throwbacks on beating the Packers and losing a close one to the team with the #1 seed in the NFC.
We’ve had plenty of experience with Michael Vick, so I don’t think checking Cam will be much different. Their defense is worse than ours, and that’s saying something. In the end, if we can limit their RBs then this should be an easy win. But if we let Stewart and Williams go for almost 300 again, then we deserve to lose.
Oderint dum metuant
Our old defense and players had experience containing Vick
This group doesn’t maintain gap responsibility and overruns plays. I’m wary of Cam scrambling.
by flash_kiley on Nov 30, 2011 11:08 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
The Bucs mostly contained Vick by having Brooks spy him
Brooks could take on Vick as a tackler and with speed. The only Buccaneer now who could stand a chance would probably be Geno Hayes, but I don’t think he can bring down Newton.
We know how to deal with a scrambling QB.
And I agree that Geno probably can’t take him down by himself, but that’s why we are supposed to gang tackle. Geno/Black can slow him down enough until others come to help.
Oderint dum metuant
Despite his play Black could
He’s the fastest linebacker on the field at all times and one the fastest on the defense. His 40 was faster than aqib was coming out of college. He has great measurables and that’s why he was given that crazy contact despite his play isn’t matching his combine stats.
by BucFan727 on Nov 30, 2011 11:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
If pure physical attributes were all that mattered...
then Todd Marinovich would have been the greatest QB to ever live. The space between the ears matters more. Montana was smart. Brady is smart, Manning is smart. Maybe Quincy Black cannot understand the subtleties of his position. Pursuit angles, reading plays, etc.
So basically Quincy Black will be the strongest, fastest guy at the car wash he ends up working at.
Agreed,
Cam Goes for at least one rushing score this week. I mean at this point he is pretty much guaranteed a rushin TD/week.
I think we need to have a strong coaching system put in place across the board.
Remember the Tony Dungy era? We had great coaches across the board that ended up being head coaches. We need to start bringing in a compilation of good coaches to help. Escpecially a defensive coordinator. We haven’t been the same on defense since December 8, 2008.
Get it to Winslow. He's open!!!!
All those coaches look great in hindsight
But they mostly built their reputation in Tampa, and did not arrive with one.
True indeed
However since the Raheem era, the selection process of our coaches and coordinator has been terrible to say the least.
Get it to Winslow. He's open!!!!
Depends how it happens.
Best answer I can give.
Fire Raheem
Get rid of Raheem and your problem is solved. He is an joke! No guidance and no discipline. Totally unprepared for any games.
The team is playing like they are freelancing, grasping at straws to get anything to work. Freedman couldnt hit the ocean if he was standing on the end of a pier.
The defence can’t tackel to save there life. They have no presure on the oposing QB. They need to revamp the whold defence.
Tough choices need to be made or no one will go to the games. And who could blame them? tough economey ticket prices to high for the common fan. Meanwhile the owners and players still put millions of dollars in their pockets even if they play like crap!
So would sapp, white, and the rest of our superbowl winning defense
East Coast Fan
by Bucfan on Dec 1, 2011 12:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
ANYBODY who doesn’t think Tampa vastly outperformed themselves (and got very lucky to boot) last year is just plain delusional. They were lucky to be 8-8, let alone 10-3.
This author says TB is in “major meltdown”. Uh, you have to get to a lofty spot to fall. And this falls more on Dominik than Morris. They’re lack of free agency moves is criminal, especially considering their cap space.
I still don’t get why they haven’t gotten another defensive coordinator. It NEVER works when one man is wearing multiple hats, be it head coach/GM or head coach/coordinator.
It works very often, actually
Plenty of head coaches around the league are both head coach and coordinator if not in title then at least in practice. Most famously Bill Belichick.
But take Rah's good friend Mike Tomlin.
He has an d-coordinator even though his specialty is defense, and we’ve seen how that has worked out for the Steelers. It would let Rah take more time to focus on the things he needs to as the head coach.
Oderint dum metuant
Well, Tomlin was lucky enough to already have a Hall of Famer already there when he was hired.
As long as LeBeau is willing to coordinate, he’s in good shape on the defensive side.
Pretty sure that starting 3-1 and currently being 4-7 qualifies as major meltdown.
If losing five in a row doesn’t
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." ~ Mark Twain
0-2 against carolina = Raheems gone
Gotta say I agree with most of you that say Raheem is going to be gone if he at least doesn’t win six games this season. But if he loses both games to cam and finishes last in the division he’s defenintley not coming back. The 10 wins would be a fluke and he would probably get fired. If he at least finishes in 3rd place he’ll be back because the Dominick and Glazers will look at it as the youngest team in the league + lockout + no offseason work = bad team, bad record. And he’ll get another shot. I think that Raheem kept or not needs to relinquish those D coordinator duties. Olson has to go. The linebacker coach should of been released yesterday. And possibly fire one of those dline coaches. Its obvious that 2 voices are not teaching these guys gap integrity, shedding blocks.
This is a Great Article.
Last night, I literally was thinking of writing this in a new fanpost. This game is the measurement of how far we have fallen. If we are who we thought we were then we beat bad teams. If we get a “L” this week, Morris deserves to go (after the game, or at the end of the season, I dont care). We need a coach, not an enabler, not a friend, a coach. Im tired of watching this team underachieve. Its bad when all I have to do to watch this team is spend +/- 10 bucks to watch the team at a bar on my day off, and I dont even go. Im tired of the up and down. Its been this way since we won the super bowl and im tired of it. Glazers, give me a F"N TEAM I CAN BE PROUD OF. You do that and you’ll get butts in the stands. See, Steelers, Pittsburgh!
Can't argue about not only losing to Carolina twice
but losing to Jacksonville. I think Rah should come back next yr but make a few changes such as firing Olsen, step down from being a DC and hire an experience one, and be less of a player friendly coach and hold players more accountable for their on and off field actions. With that said, I think if we don’t go at least 2-3 the rest of the season and finish 5-11 or even worse losing the rest of our games after we were 4-2 I can’t make a case of him coming back.
Wow I just read an article online that lists the 100 saddest cities in the country
St. Pete is ranked 100 and Tampa 97. That’s just terrible. The figure were based on unemployment, suicide rates and number of people on anti-depressants. I knew things were bad in FL but not that bad.
RAHEEM IS A JOKE! OLSON IS GARBAGE! THE GLAZERS SUCK!
by bucfanlostiniowa on Nov 30, 2011 2:00 PM EST reply actions
yes its that bad
our governor’s a Medicare Crook, the pro teams suck, the college teams aren’t much better, and I think they tore down the Original Hooters restaurant on Gulf-to-Bay.
I’m surprised they haven’t installed a 3-mile long safety net under the Skyway bridge yet.
Time to shamelessly plug my book and short story!
That online artice should be filed under "the grass is always greener" heading...
as people living in Flint, MI or maybe Cleveland, OH might trade places with you Tampa-ites.
At least you have really nice weather, all of that pretty water and that street taco coach on E. Busch. Could be worse…
by Cracker Ball on Nov 30, 2011 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
I drive past the Hooters every day
Still there as of yesterday.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." ~ Mark Twain
Always catch a man before you hang him. - Abraham Whipple
Let’s talk about firings after the season shall we?
Time to shamelessly plug my book and short story!
So new assistant coaches are now the magic bullet to fix this team
How is that going to work? By all accounts this team is sloppy and undisciplined, so these new coaches are going to come in and and be tough on the players? What about Raheem he’s been soft on them for three years, you don’t think this is going to cause problems? It sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.
RAHEEM IS A JOKE! OLSON IS GARBAGE! THE GLAZERS SUCK!
by bucfanlostiniowa on Nov 30, 2011 4:50 PM EST reply actions
This seems worse that Grudens "collapse" to me...
because you could see exactly what happened to the spirit of the team after Monte Kiffin decided to announce he was leaving with a few games to play. You could actually hear the air escaping from the balloon.
Rah, on the other hand, must exclusively assume all responsibility for this collapse. It was his team, his defense, his assistant coaching choices. It all comes right back to the guy that never was really qualified to be out HC in the first place. I think Jon Gruden looks pretty good right now.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 30, 2011 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
I'd probably take Dominik+Gruden over Dominik+Raheem
But I am pretty thankful that the Bucs are no longer the team consisting solely of 30+-year-olds with very little future perspective.
I would agree 100%...
and perhaps that should have been the combination for 2009-2012 instead.
Oops.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 30, 2011 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
they should have waited to pull the trigger on gruden, raheem should have been dc like the original plan
then they could have moved raheem to headcoach in 2010 if gruden failed again instead of the mess were in now.
RAHEEM IS A JOKE! OLSON IS GARBAGE! THE GLAZERS SUCK!
by bucfanlostiniowa on Nov 30, 2011 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
and they should have reeled gruden in and not him pick any players
RAHEEM IS A JOKE! OLSON IS GARBAGE! THE GLAZERS SUCK!
by bucfanlostiniowa on Nov 30, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
I think he's gone regardless.
Only one year left on his deal, Gruden has been paid, it’s over. I’m just hoping Newton doesn’t run for 150 on us this weekend.
"I'd run over my mother to win the Super Bowl." - Russ Grimm
If we can hold Williams/Stewart/Newton to less than 200 yards I'll be pleasantly surprised.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." ~ Mark Twain
Not gonna happen...
We are very easy to run on, and those 3 will have a field day doing so. We end up at the bottom of the NFC South.
didnt stewart/williams run for almost 300 on us ? now add cam to that
it could get ugly
by Carlitin1988 on Dec 1, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
We are in trouble this weekend!!
I see carolina running at will against us and posting 300 plus yards. We let pedestrian teams slice us, carolina doesnt have a pedestrian running attack either.
4 – 8 coming up…. Though obviously I hope not.
East Coast Fan
by Bucfan on Dec 1, 2011 2:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Lay off the coffee folks
This is year three with a lot of key position with 1-3 years vets. Our main issue in the o line inconsistent blocking. Horrible corners play. Lack of tackling. And bone head decision from players (penalties and misassignments) and coaches (Greg “Mr. End Around” Olsen). In a way I wouldn’t be too mad about a bad record now. That mean high draft picks to upgrade key areas. Faine has to go. He’s undersize and we lost to all 3-4 defenses. Plus all the great team has big o line. I would put zuttah at center and get guards. Free ran a lot last season due to horrible blocking. Hopefully we can get James for a third down back role. Get a new OC that actually has sense to run more often when a guy avg 3.5 yrads a rush. And be unpredictable for once. After the running back and oline we shoudl hit the secondary, one DT, and linebackers hard in the draft and FA. We can find better players than BLack, Mack, Lewis, and Biggers. Most of these guy are second team talent playing as starters and nickel. This team isn’t too far off from being good. It’s has a good foundation right now as far as players. These young guy are going to make mistakes. Heck I used to laugh at Peyton Manning his first 3 years. He earn my respect. Relax everyone. It’s not the end of the world here.
Rah should stay
I think the offseason impacted Tampa more than many other teams. Much was made of the point that a young team had no coaching during the lockout, but we’ve all forgotten about it now.
Most of the teams doing well are veteran based teams. Plus, look at how well Freeman did in year 2 when he had access to offseason coaching.
And I would keep Morris over Gruden for now because he is still learning. Gruden wasn’t learning and improving after 6 years and there was no franchise QB, whilst Free may be in a down year I don’t see that he’s gone from franchise to bust, but they both need a bit of time.
Maybe he should have DC, and maybe that needs pushing on him, but for me it’s the OC that needs changing.
Young QB needs a good ground game to keep the defence honest and balanced play calling. And let’s face it 3rd down plays have been telegraphed all year.
Green Bay is the 2nd youngest team in the NFL.
and are undefeated. So, it’s hard for me to believe the veteran based team talk.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." ~ Mark Twain
and the bengals are outplaying almost everyone in a tough division with a rookie qb
not to mention how good at points cam has looked.. lockout is an escape goat at this point
by Carlitin1988 on Dec 1, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
It's that way because the OC run plays that similar to their college career.
The Panthers never ran an option until this year. I’m sure dalton has plays he’s comfortable with. Both have a rather balanced play calling. THat point toward to a wise OC and HC.
You fire Raheem, you will remain last in the division for a long time.
In your you article you did a good with your explanation, so why you sucking up to this negative minded fans and said Raheem should go, if you fire Morris your team will remain at the pit of NFC south for a long time, i know this fan hatred outsmart there little intelligence.
That's not true at all.
The Falcons turned it around in one year. The Panthers look quite a bit more promising after 3/4 a year. A new coach can easily come in and equal or better this season’s likely five or six wins. It’s not like Raheem does any particular thing extremely well that would sorely be missed.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." ~ Mark Twain
I agree lee..
A new good coach with the right assistants and front office support could turn this team around quickly.
East Coast Fan
by Bucfan on Dec 1, 2011 2:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
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