Why knock the O-line
by keysersoze19 on May 14, 2010 3:11 PM EDT
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PrintOne thing that makes a good O-line or lineman is 1 who does not get talked about. It is hard to tell how good an offensive lineman is just by watching the game, really only those who studied the game or have played the game can tell you the true value. Our O-line is very strong like it or not our QBs were some of the best protected in the league the past 2 years .
There is a lot of talent up front. Jeff Faine is 1 of the best centers in the league, he make the QB reads at the line easier, rarely has botched handoffs, he creates nice holes for the RB and is money in pass protection. Davin Joseph is 1 of the best guards in the league. Davin is an athletic freak who loves to hit and lay the wood to people, he is an intimidating force I am proud to say he is a BUC. Zuttah is another athletic freak that is very versatile, he is a natural blocker, this guy has already proven he belongs in this league but has some room for improvement which will make him 1 of the best down the line. Trueblood is a perfect name for an offensive lineman, some may say he is the weak link but I say he is our enforcer, he might draw a lot of penalties but to many guys do not like going against him. Donald Penn the only one in this group not happy but deserves to be. He is one of the most athletic LT in the game, he has proven that he can protect a QB blind side which is the most important thing you can ask from you LT.
These guys were the last piece that Gruden put together before he was let go, and they were key in that record setting 09 season for the Bucs offense. I have herd a little negative criticism about how they did not open up holes last year in the run game, but with a weak pass game that no one respects that allows you to load 8 even 9 in the box consistently and effectively. Also they took a hit with the system change just like every one else first they were ask to lose more weight to be quicker on their feet for a zone blocking scheme, after Jag left it went back to the more traditional style of blocking which I like better for this unit anyway. Like or not this group is as solid as they come and across the board 1 of the best units in the league. They are making Freemans transition an easy 1 and Williams return a less painful 1 . But thats My opinion Buc nation tell me what is yours ?
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While you are right that they pass protected pretty well, they did not open a lot of holes in the running game
Maybe it was a bad scheme, but I don’t think they knocked many other defensive lines off the ball. We didn’t break the top 23 teams in the league for any rushing category, and most were near the very bottom. Our backs aren’t the best in the league, but I think they are better than that. None of our line made the pro-bowl and deservedly so. IMO the offensive line needs work, maybe with the same guys and better coaching, maybe with different guys.
Why knock the O-line?
Because whatever the reason, the O-line produced poorly last year. We were one of the worst teams in the NFL running up the middle, and we had a high sack rate. Last year, this group wasn’t close to being one of the best units in the NFL last year, and while they may have been the season before, this is a ‘what have you done for me lately’ league.
I’m hopeful the line improves, and I think the key is Zuttah making strides and Trueblood improving his pass blocking and not false starting.
If our O-line were that bad
then the O-line would have been a main concern through the draft and free agency, what the Bucs said just throw our young QB out there with bad protection and give up on our run game all together, I don’t think so . The Bucs realize that you build a team from the inside out hence 2 DTs taking with our first 2 picks 3 in the past two years. We do not address our offensive line cause it is solid and not a problem. NFL experts don’t seem to think it’s a problem, and the Bucs front office don’t seem to think it’s a problem, heck the only reason why Kiper and Mcshay said take a tackle was cause of the uncertainty of Penn
by keysersoze19 on May 14, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
That was the only reason they said that?
I could’ve sworn it was because Trueblood is a liability in pass coverage and costs the team a lot of yards with his penalties.
Our O-line last year was bad. At least, it was bad at run blocking, with runs up the gut and runs outside (poor run-blocking by our TEs) being the big weaknesses. It was slightly better than league average as a pass-blocking unit, although the mobility of Johnson and Freeman probably helped a little there.
You trot out the ‘if blah was so bad then we would’ve done something about it’ reasoning. But there’s 2 problems with that line of reasoning. The first is that even if the O-line was bad, it wasn’t nearly as bad as other areas of our play. The second is that the front office may have a reason to believe that the line will be better next year without outside help, but that doesn’t mean they were good this year.
Look, simple facts: Trueblood was whistled for more penalties than I think any lineman in the league, he also gave up more sacks than any other RT in the league. That kind of performance warrants a serious critical note. Furthermore, the Bucs were worst(!) in the NFl running up the gut according to Football Outsiders and 31st running off right end.
The bright spots of last year: the line was 6th running off left tackle, 18th off left end and 11th off right tackle. That’s decent and nothing to be ashamed off. The line as a whole was 11th in sack rate. Again, nothing to be ashamed of.
Nothing to be ashamed of
Those number are something to be proud of. You make no sense in terms of the front office dealing with problems, the truth is this if Trueblood was as bad as you say his job will be in jeopardy which it is not, Rah and Mark said nothing about the o-line being an issue which mean that the guys up front are doing their job. You can count the issues addressed this offseason on 1 hand SS Wr and the D-line, other than that what other issues does this team have, try to find it out and you will get a headache coming up with something. The only other real problem is DE but they can get better with better play from our DTs. Stop knocking my BUCS the o-line is not bad how can you run up the middle when you got teams crowding the line with an efficiency, thats why it is important to have balance in this league when we played with balance we ran the ball good look at the Dallas game and Saints game, we ran good against 2 good defenses
by keysersoze19 on May 14, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Stop knocking my Bucs...
That doesn’t speak well for your objectivity in considering alternative arguments.
Cannons... fire them.
Buc'Em - SBNation's home for discussion of all things regarding the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
@ Craig T
I understand if you don’t see eye to eye on certain points thats understandable but when every point is debated against when every point should not be debated against is just foolishness
by keysersoze19 on May 14, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
That's silly.
I’m pointing out that you don’t seem to see Sander’s argument as what it is…an objective argument. You see it apparently as an attack on your Bucs, which is your right I suppose.
I happen to agree with Sander on most of his points. I also think that part of the reason the offensive line wasn’t addressed is because there are other glaring, bone-dry needs on the roster and they only had so many draft picks to spend. Also, we don’t know how or where on their list they rated various offensive line prospects available in relation to other players/areas of need.
That being said…on the positive side….the line was asked to change both their weight and blocking scheme before last season and during last season, so that couldn’t have been easy to pick up. It’ll be interesting to see how they start off the year with a set scheme to work from.
Cannons... fire them.
Buc'Em - SBNation's home for discussion of all things regarding the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
League averages are nothing to be proud of
There’s only one statistic that’s signficantly above league average, and that’s running off left tackle. The rest is about league average or significantly worse. I don’t see how league average is something to be proud of.
The only reason Trueblood still has a job is that the front office either thinks they have an in-house replacement for the future, or they think Trueblood can improve significantly next year, or they couldn’t find someone they think is better on the market for a reasonable price without neglecting other needs (like DT, CB, WR). They couldn’t pick one up in the draft who would be a quality replacement without neglecting those needs. There was no one in free agency who would do significantly better than Trueblood.
Trueblood is a bad starting right tackle. But I honestly can’t think of anyone on the market right now we could bring in for a reasonable price who would do better. The lack of movement on that front doesn’t mean he’s great at all. Because otherwise obviously Michael Clayton must be a great wide receiver since before 2009 they offered him a huge contract. The front office believed in him, so he must be great. Right? Because that’s the level of that argument: baloney.
Here, I’ve asked this of you before and you’ve never ever answered this properly: how is a right tackle who gave up more sacks than any right tackle and gave up more penalties (and most of them false starts) than any o-lineman in the league a good tackle? Those are two damning statistics, yet every time I bring them up you just ignore something and come up with the fallacy that the front office must see something in him so he must be good.
So, before you say anything else, answer me this: given those two statistics on Trueblood, how can you call him a good RT?
By the way, the Saints were a bad run defense and that was their weakness all year long. They had relatively poor d-line play. The reason it often wasn’t a problem for them was that they’d jump out to humongous leads and force the opponents to pass.
I will answer your question
When you provide proof that he gave up the most sacks for any RT in the game last year, NFL experts have talked about the fact that the guy does draw a lot of penalties, I don’t believe that sack thing you talk about cause I have never herd or seen no one else talk about it . The fact that that management has not addressed the offensive line does tell you that they feel good with what they have upfront. Every NFL analyst also thinks that this is not an area of concern. When you are building a team you start from the inside out, the reason why we have not addressed the O-line is because there is nothing to address. We addressed our wideout problem if Clayton step up or not but answer me this, what good is it to get Freeman weapons if he has no chance to get the ball to the weapons ?
by keysersoze19 on May 14, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
.
Here you go, but you need ESPN insider to read it. The quote:
honorary mentions at right tackle go to Tampa’s Jeremy Trueblood (nine blown blocks that led to sacks, a league high)
It’s from Football Outsiders own game charting project, which differentiates between blown blocks leading to sacks and other types of sacks, so coverage sacks and the like are not counted here.
And you missed my point on the front office. You assume that the front office knows exactly what it’s doing and is always right. That’s the basis behind the argument ‘the front office did nothing about the O-line. Clearly that’s nonsense, because if the front-office was always right about these thing they would never have given Clayton that contract.
And I don’t know what football coverage you read, but O-line, specifically an OT was often mentioned as a need for the Bucs, going so far as the idea of Okung being drafted at #3 by the Bucs being touted a couple times.
As for your last question: yet again you pull things into extremes that cannot be pulled into such extremes. As a unit the line was 11th in pass protection. That’s pretty decent and doesn’t necessitate any upgrades. But that doesn’t take away the fact that Trueblood was pretty poor last year and that replacing him would signifcantly upgrade the line.
Nine Blown block that led to sacks
That does not mean he gave up the most sacks in 2010 I went to NFL fanhouse .com and they had their own chart and Duane Brown for the Texans was at the top of the list. And while your opinion does matter, it has nothing to do with how the front office is running this team you might as well go to 1 buc place and give them your resume for that case. These guys are professionals and know what they are doing, yea giving Michael Clayton that contract might have been a mistake, but they addressed it in the offseason. Like I said NFL analyst said pick up a lineman only cause of the unknown if Penn would be back, but ask your self who would you rather have Okung or Mccoy I think we all know the answer to that. You also ignore the fact that the changes in offense effected the O-line drastically they were told to lose weight in which they are losing an edge in power and then go back to be hog mollies.
by keysersoze19 on May 14, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I would have been nice to see them address the RT situation
in the draft. There were several opportunities but other choices were made instead. Maybe Xavier Fulton will show something or Render will free up somebody else to move outside, assuming Trueblood can’t improve. I’d love to see some smash-mouth play up front.
by Cracker Ball on May 14, 2010 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
It did lead the league in the NFL
Again: football outsiders relies on game charting. This means they have people look at the game tape and write down what happened themselves. They differentiate between coverage sacks, QBs sacking themselves and blown blocks that lead to sacks. Their game charting has been so accurate that each year around 200 mistakes (from memory) in the NFL official game stats get corrected because of the charting Football Outsiders does.
And, according to their game charting which I’d trust over any other source, Trueblood had 9 blown blocks that led to sacks. More than any other RT in the league. Duane Brown may have had more total sacks allowed, but that doesn’t mean he had more blown blocks that led to sacks.
As for the front office: again, the front office is not infallible. All I am saying is that Trueblood deserves to be replaced, but that there were bigger needs this offseason. That’s exactly what the front office showed: they adressed bigger needs. The fact that you even say that you’d rather have McCoy than Okung shows this.
Most NFL analysts I saw that mentioned drafting an OT either early or late in the draft mentioned Trueblood as a reason to do so.
Yes, the changes in the offense were probably a problem for the line. But the Bucs weren’t the only line with problems, yet still Trueblood led the league in sacks allowed and also penalties. Those are simple facts. No matter what happened in the offseason, no starting lineman should lead the league in those two categories.
He will do good
He will be back for 2010. There was 1 assessment made about him that yea he gave up some sacks and penalties, but he also is physical and a nasty blocker crap Favre is the all time leader in ints so you would not take him cause of that
by keysersoze19 on May 14, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
yea giving Michael Clayton that contract might have been a mistake, but they addressed it in the offseason.
They did?
They addressed the wideout position
cause it was a problem, 2 offseason with Rah and the same o-line I don’t think there is a problem there
by keysersoze19 on May 15, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure what you just said....
But I think you’re referring to the draft?
Back to my point: we haven’t addressed the Clayton “contract” issue. It’s still a problem.
Who cares about that contact issue
If Reggie Brown, Arrelious Benn, & Mike Williams put up good numbers next year, thats how you get over with giving someone a contract they do not deserve, cause if the players do step up no one will be thinking about Clayton
by keysersoze19 on May 15, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I completely agree!!!
I feel like our OLine has been living off of “potential” because we are young and “talented” yet, we suck….(lol) I feel like if the OLine doesn’t pick it up as a whole this season, we better start thinking about OLine at the top of next years draft…..It is unfair for a franchise to give their “franchise” QB a shitty line. I’m sure every QB would rather have a great OLine and no one to pass to than, HOF WR/TE and no line at all.
If Freeman fails it is not completely his fault, hell i wouldn’t say it half his fault……
by shadowchicken on May 15, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone is quick to knock the o-line
but our QBs was some of the best well protected in the league last year, we played the Giants, Cowboys, Packers, Jets,& Saints all teams that get a lot of pressure on the QB and we held our own
by keysersoze19 on May 15, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not so sure we held our own
against the Jets. We kinda looked like a Pop Warner team playing against Florida – at least offensively.
by Cracker Ball on May 15, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
My opinon on the OL
Get Clayton to gain 50 lbs and make use of his contract.
Good Guys Don't use the reply button
At least we aren't sitting on O-line
I’m guessing the Front office is thinking the O-line struggles last year were a product of scheme and not really personnel. However, I was worried about our lack of O-line depth and we didn’t use a pick in the draft a little bit( we only had so many picks I know) and it is nice to see sizable portion of our FASignings since then has been on the O-line front ( out of 15 or so of our FA post draft signing, about 1/3 has been O-line):
Minnesota center Jeff Tow-Arnett ( anticipated signing according to Pewter Report)
Texas A&M guard/tackle Michael Shumard
Virginia Tech guard Sergio Render
Texas A&M G Lee Grimes ( Tryout player signing)
Western Kentucky T Derek Hardman
Harvard T James Williams
Now some of those are just training camp bodies but a lot of those seem to be competition pieces for O-line depth so it’s good to know we are not just sitting on you on what we have totally
"I've got nothing to prove,"- Warren Sapp
It feels like those are mostly depth signings, though
Because depth at O-line is pretty bad and undrafted free agents are unlikely to crack any starting lineup.
The OL often seems to be a place
where late rounders and undrafted players actually find some success. If some guy gets pegged for having arms that are too short, or suspected of slow feet, some teams seem to just take them off the board. Its like they get so wrapped up in those details that the rest doesn’t matter. OL must be an especially difficult position to gauge.
by Cracker Ball on May 15, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
That's true
But I think that mostly goes for interior linemen, though. Remember Robert Gallery? Brilliant player, but his arms really are too short to play tackle so he was moved to guard – where he does excel.
I don't know what his problem was
but short arms are, to some degree, a faux determinant in a player’s struggles or triumphs. Joe Thomas and Jake Long both are considered to have shorter arms than an ideal tackle, but both have been solid.
Cannons... fire them.
Buc'Em - SBNation's home for discussion of all things regarding the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
Both of those guys are great
But I think Gallery has shorter arms than the both of them.
The problem is that there seems to be a minimum required arm length to be effective, and that you can be effective with arms that are short but still above that minimum.
I dont know that there's a minimum per se
During the draft, Kiper, McShay, Young and the guys on espn listed an “ideal” arm length for a tackle and noted that several players, including the two I listed, fell below that mark, but were still effective players. I don’t know how Gallery relates to those guys length-wise, but the guy doesn’t have the arms of an alligator. If his arms were that short, they would have been talked about at great length and like would have given teams great pause back in ‘03…and that didn’t stop him from being highly-rated. I don’t see his arm-length being an issue…he’s just stunk at tackle.
Cannons... fire them.
Buc'Em - SBNation's home for discussion of all things regarding the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
by Craig T on May 16, 2010 12:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
His arm-length was talked about a lot I think
Joe Thomas had 32 1/2", Jake Long 32 7/8" and Gallery 32 1/4"
A quarter of an inch less than Thomas and basically a half inch less than Long
Its not like the guy has 30 inch arms. De minimus difference. He just stunk. And I don’t remember hearing about his short arms as a major red flag.
Agree to disagree.
Cannons... fire them.
Buc'Em - SBNation's home for discussion of all things regarding the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
by Craig T on May 16, 2010 2:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You make up with the short arm problem
With the proper foot work and blocking technique Thomas and Long have that add that with the nasty blocking sprit and a whole lot of power and who cares about short arms those guys don’t. Gallery was a tightend who converted to tackle in college he had the athleticism to be an effective blocker, but in the NFL athleticism is just 25% of a offensive lineman forte, the short arms, poor technique, and he does not stay low gives you exactly what Gallery is a serviceable guard .
by keysersoze19 on May 16, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Last year's struggles could be the result of switching blocking schemes
Boom. Outta Here.
by Ryan Gilliss on May 16, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Except in 2008, with a full cast (Penn, Sears, Faine, Joseph, Trueblood)
the line still was average at best. That was with the man blocking scheme (under Gruden). I think we have good players, but we have enough mental lapses (see Trueblood, Jeremy) that for every 3 good plays by our OL, we have one insanely bad play/penalty.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
He can argue all he wants, it's his opinion, but I did the research last offseason and was very surprised at just how average they were in 2008.
I’ll be happy to track down some numbers for the 2009 version if it interests anyone.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
I should add to this that I wasn't taking a shot at keyser, just saying it's his opinion, which he is welcome to.
Not trying to say people can’t argue their point of view.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
You're preaching to the choir.
I haven’t seen anything remarkable on our line. “Average” sums it up.
It's a weird phenomenom. The players all seem to have above average skills.
Before I did that numbers grab last year, I was under the assumption our OL was top 10 easy. I was very surprised at how average they were. Very peculiar.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
Stats don't tell the story of an offensive lineman
Numbers really don’t rate an offensive lineman. When a top offensive lineman hits the free agency his stats are not his selling point, only the amount of sacks given up and the number of starts are the most you can grade an offensive lineman on paper. You grade those guys by what they do on tape and on the field, you do not hear a lineman being picked up cause they have a nice stat sheet.
Buc Wild you said it in the sense that they have above average skills, which 1 can give them an above average grade. But in this league almost every team has an average or above average offensive line
by keysersoze19 on May 17, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Were you find those stats
not on NFL.com, as a matter of fact if offensive linemen stats were or importance they would be valued in fantasy leagues
by keysersoze19 on May 17, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Fantasy football is one of the worst ways to evaluate how good or bad players are.
I have no desire to grade OL as they would be graded in a fantasy football perspective.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
The best thing about Fantasy football is
they value a player factor points, the higher you are rated that means the previous year you had a lot of factor points. What you don’t realize is that stats is 70% of fantasy football, I made the point about offensive lineman in fantasy football cause their stats are not that important which is the reason they are not thought of in fantasy football.
by keysersoze19 on May 17, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
What you don’t realize is that stats is 70% of fantasy football
And see, this whole time I thought it was 100%.
I was not sure
So 70% was the more accurate statement, there is a lot of strategy that goes with that. You would find at least five good fantasy players on the wavier or a free agent, that will put up better numbers then guys rated in the top 50.
by keysersoze19 on May 17, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Those are stats too
Just because you’re not entirely certain how someone will do doesn’t mean that it suddenly isn’t about the stats.
Strategy has a lot to do with it
as well as stats, play fantasy football just based on stats and you will not be effective
by keysersoze19 on May 17, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
The strategy is based on stats
If you base it on something that isn’t stats, eg whether someone has a family, then you will fail in fantasy football.
I have played fantasy football for 7+ years in different formats (whoop-de-doo)
so I know how fantasy football works. But it is a TERRIBLE way to evaluate a player. For one thing, scoring systems are all different, and where you take a player doesn’t matter for most (though it does in auction formats). Punters aren’t valued in fantasy football but I could argue all day the merits of a good punter or a bad punter. Using fantasy fotball to say OL’s stats aren’t important is a strawman argument. Again, I can show you 10-12 numbers and observations on how our OL (or any other OL) performed as a group. It gets tough to evaluate them individually for us non-scouts, but as a group, it is a bit easier.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
Very true
And the reason O-line stats aren’t used in fantasy football is that they don’t generate trackable, play-by-play stats that are published by the league.
If you believe that
When you see NFL experts talk about offensive lineman they use 1 stat then go to the tape. That is the only way to truly evaluate a lineman
by keysersoze19 on May 17, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
They do that because the stats that are out there aren't easily understandable
That they don’t get talked about in mainstream media doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
See: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
Thats the way you feel
but the last thing a coach a GM is looking at to evaluate a Offensive line or an offensive lineman is a stat sheet, there is a reason for that
by keysersoze19 on May 17, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
So age, sacks allowed, penalties, pancakes...
Don’t matter? It’s based on the coach’s gut feeling?
You learn something new everyday.
Thanks for the comment Bucs now I can give the perfect answer
Go out and get a Lineman based on age, sacks allowed, penalties, & pancakes and you will be fired as a GM.
You can’t tell if a LT can block the blind side by a stat sheet, you can’t see if a guard is athletic enough by a stat sheet, you can’t see how nasty and intimidating a guy is as a blocker by a stat sheet, you can’t tell if a center can make the right pre snap reads by a stat sheet. That list can go on for days and it all will be based off of scout notes and film .The stats is a poor way to evaluate an offensive lineman you are selling short the player and yourself
by keysersoze19 on May 17, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
And again: those are not the stats we are talking about
For an example of the kind of stats we do mean, take a look at this: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
Yes, those three stats you name are a poor overall way to judge a lineman. But those are only a small part of all the stats out there, and it doesn’t mean those stats are completely useless either.
Why not do you know how jacked up this league would be without game tape
Bruce Campbell is the perfect example his numbers say he can play at a high level in this league, but every expert said when you put the tape on you don’t see that type of player. Well why even go to the tape cause the tape is the true way to evaluate a lineman
by keysersoze19 on May 17, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Again: not the numbers I'm talking about
Please actually read the link I’ve given you twice now: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
You know what Bruce Campbell’s gameday numbers, the ones I’m talking about, would’ve told me? That he’s not a good blocker.
Do you really see all kinds of numbers as created equally?
The stats I am talking about are a reflection of gameday performance.
No those numbers could not tell you
about Campbell foot work and technique which is important as stats in grading a O-lineman
by keysersoze19 on May 17, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
All the footwork and technique in the world are useless if they don't translate to a gameday performance
And that gameday performance is what’s being measured.
What you’re saying is similar to saying that a Quarterback’s stats don’t matter because it’s all about footwork and technique. Of course it’s all about footwork and technique (and a few other things), but the stats measure the result of those things.
Foot work and technique
is more important to a lineman than a QB even though it is important to both parties, I mean there is a side of the shoulder pads that an lineman has to block if the play goes to the right their head is to be on the right
by keysersoze19 on May 17, 2010 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions
You are missing my point
You’re saying that it’s about how a person plays. Of course it is. But that doesn’t mean you can’t measure the effects, which is what all stats do.
I understand your point
and you make a good argument but the facts is this, when a high school offensive linemen gets scouted the last thing the scouts are looking at is a stat sheet. When NFL scouts college offensive linemen the last thing they are looking at is a stat sheet. And when NFL head coaches evaluate offensive linemen the last thing they are looking at is a stat sheet
by keysersoze19 on May 17, 2010 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't have the same confidence
in pure statistics that some of you do, but I would be willing to lay money that if you look at things like sacks allowed, hurries or pressures, OL penalties, avg. yards per rush, etc. we would fall somewhere around 20th out of 32. Not really terrible OL play, but there is plenty of room for improvement.
by Cracker Ball on May 17, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
You're close and 20th ou of 32 makes is average on the NFL
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
by Buc Wild on May 17, 2010 7:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I certainly would not say we were
16th or above, as we generally struggled offensively last year. Can’t blame everything on Jagodinski…
by Cracker Ball on May 17, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
You just want to blame Morris
this unit will do fine next year
by keysersoze19 on May 17, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Well none of us had anything to do with the hirings of Jagz and Bates.
It was Morris’ staff, gotta point the finger somewhere.
Stay thirsty my friends.
You are right
But it sounded good at the time with Jag and Bates helping him cause he was younger, but as of today it seems that if we went into last offseason with Olson and Rah as the coordinators we would be better
by keysersoze19 on May 18, 2010 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
When evaluating a player, those measures will give you a good bit, but not all of the story
When evaluating the entire line and when looking at 2 straight years, it gives us plenty of info. The offensive line as a unit has not played above average. They are an average group in the NFL right now. Thats better than being below average, but not as good as above average. There are about 16-18 teams that have better performing OL’s when looking at the past few years.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
That is actually COMPLETELY innaccurate.
Lineman get scored in the film room based on pancakes, blown assignments, sacks allowed, penalties, etc. What happens when the coaches come up with all of those number? A stat sheet!
"I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault." ~ Jack Tatum
As individuals they seem to grade out favorably. As a unit they have failed to live up to the hype.
Very rarely, if ever have I watched our OL and thought they were dominating a game (outside of our playoff loss to the Giants, that 1st quarter we crushed them). Our rushing yards, sacks allowed, hits on QB, hits behind the LOS, all those numbers are average or worse for the line. That matches up with what my eyes see every Sunday, good players that as a unit are average in the NFL.
I would love to have a bulldozing OL, but it hasn’t happened. I’m not trying to dog our team, but I can give you a dozen or more stats and observations on why they are average (Note: I’m not saying they suck or are bad and should be in the NFL, so all the people that wanna say me as a Bucs fan hates my team can cram it), but I have yet to see anyone show me why as a group, they are above average. I need more than “I like them” or “I think they play good”. Show me how we gave up the least amount of sacks or our running backs averaged more YPC than anyone else.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
The left side of our line is pretty dang solid.
Ranking 18th and 6th in run blocking. The left side of the line is our weak point. I REALLY wish we had individual stats on offensive lineman readily available.
"I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault." ~ Jack Tatum
They are good in the sense that
They can protect the QB and they can open up holes, it’s just that they don’t do it at an alarming rate as other teams. They showed me they can handle adversity with the change that was made in offense last year, those kind of changes can make or break offensive linemen but our guys still did an admirable job.1 thing no one can say is that these guys are sorry, or their play sets this team back. Think of Josh Freeman behind Buffalo line or Green-bay line.
They're better than some other lines
But they’re also worse than a lot of other lines. They’re about league average, and really that is all there is to it.
They are right above league average which would give them a B-
and just to have an average line in this league says a lot it is not a easy job to block in the NFL and even the good lines look bad from time to time
by keysersoze19 on May 17, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
While it's entirely true that it's hard to play in the NFL
Average is still average no matter how you look at it.
Every OL can open up holes and protect the QB at times, but on average, the Bucs OL was no better than anyone else, very average.
I’m not questioning effort or desire, but their play as a unit was not top 5, top 10 or top 15 in 2008 or 2009. I want them to succeed, I hope they do and I thought that the zone system would play into our hands. I was wrong. You are saying our OL is great due to their handling of a new system (they didn’t get overwhelmed or fall apart) and you think they are good. I’m saying that based on scouting from other sources, and any measure of meaningful stats that they are did not perform above average in 2008 or 2009. They were average, which isn’t bad when you consider other teams, but they aren’t the stellar unit we thought they would be, especially given the money being paid to Faine, Joseph and Trueblood.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
This is why the knock on the OL
Here. I noticed the debate died when we got into the actual numbers.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
There is no more debating I said what I had to say on the subject
You don’t here those numbers and statistics used by coaches or in he media, not because they are confusing but because O-lineman and stat sheets do not mix not matter how you look at it
by keysersoze19 on May 19, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
So we should just listen to what the media tells us?
Our OL has been average at best. Prove to me with any substance how our OL was top 10 at anything? No scout, media member ora stat will show that to you. I don’t need the stats to prove my case, but they back me up nicely. I will trust my eye, the scouts eyes and the numbers.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
You got it wrong
the only reason I said anything about the media cause any stats worth mentioning will be mentioned, there are no stats mentioned with O-linemen cause they are not worth mentioning. You don’t here head coaches or GMs mentioning stats with O-linemen cause they do not mix. Go to NFL.com and there is not a category for O-linemen stats cause no ones care. When you are breaking down offensive linemen you are in front of a TV ready to break down some film, or you are reading notes from film you have watched anything else is irrelevant
You've never heard people on TV talk about OL stats? You've never heard weight, age, penalties, sacks allowed? Because I have.
Do you not think the Bears are concerned with Orlando Pace’s lousy stats? Because I do.
Weight and age is not stats it is a persons makeup
Penalties and sacks yea but more than that makeups a lineman, and the rest comes from tape
You're still stubbornly hanging on to the mistaken idea that sacks and penalties are the only available stats for linemen
Even though I and others have shown you other, more relevant stats several times.
It’s your refusal to even attempt to read what people write that is so infuriating.
by Sander on May 19, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Those stats shown are not used by head coaches or anyone else except on the web
I would agree with you if you can tell me how a coach would use these stats no coach on any level of football associate those stats with O-linemen, those are for the fans that like to look at the numbers nothing more and nothing less
by keysersoze19 on May 19, 2010 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
You keep saying that 'coaches don't use those stats'
I have to assume that you’re an NFL coach now, because your knowledge of the intricacies of the position are amazing.
For instance, you don’t know that teams have been using their own stats (that are for more advanced than the standard stats officially tracked by the NFL) for decades.
and for decades
No coach on any level of football has associated stats other than the 2 mentioned with O-linemen
And for decades they didn't use the forward pass. The game evolves. Metrics that weren't thought of 20 years ago are coming about now.
The NBA didn’t used to have a 3 point line, the NFL didn’t discuss QB rating years ago. We don’t know what metrics coaches use, but they do grade each player at every position on a play by play basis which is more than just an eyeball test. Just because it used to be done a certain way years ago doesn’t mean thats still the best way or how it’s done now.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
For example, with defensive backs it used to be just tackles and interceptions tracked.
Now it’s those plus passes defended, stop %, amount of passes thrown at them etc.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
Perfect example
BIG BEN likes to hold on to the ball till he sees the perfect opening, well the numbers will not look good for those linemen will it, put those same linemen around Drew Brees and their numbers will look better, overall it’s a poor evaluation
by keysersoze19 on May 19, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Which numbers though? Sacks allowed might look bad, but that has nothing to do with run stats either. Plus, the counter argument is true, maybe Big Ben can hold onto the ball for so long because his line gives him time.
Again, I can show you a hake dozen figures, reports and accounts of why the Bucs OL is average (nit bad, just not above average). In fact, our best number was acks allow which we could throw some credit to Freeman for. I’m providing evaluation, facts to back up an argument. You are providing nothing other than your opinion, which you are entitled to, but it has no basis. You asked in your fan post why knock the OL and vie provided my data points. I’ve provided numerous stats which no one has done anything to refute
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
So you are saying
that guys in the front office use these stats in which you will be stating your opinion my facts backs up the point that they don’t use these useless stats sheets, you have shown no proof that guys in the front office uses these stats
by keysersoze19 on May 19, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm saying the FO of any NFL team has more metrics and ways to grade players than you or I could imagine.
I’m also saying of what is readily available there is NOTHING that suggests the Bucs OL is above average. Stats, game film, scouting reports, nothing says the Bucs OL was anything other than average. What are your facts? So far you’ve said
No coach on any level of football has associated stats other than the 2 mentioned with O-linemenFalse
When anyone breaks down film, what do they do? They don’t watch the film and then walk away and say “Player X did good” They rate players in categories, they track how they do against certain plays, formations, blitzes. They know that Player X was 1 on 1 and that he was beat 3 times out of 40 plays. THey don’t just sit there and watch film for 2 hours and leave saying, “Yup, our OL did good, we saw the tape”
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
by Buc Wild on May 20, 2010 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You are almost on the right track
cause the thing you here when the media and head coaches talk about O-linmen they say did you see the tape on this guy not did you see the stat sheet on this guy. Plus they just don’t watch that tape and thats it they have notes and what not that they take but not stat sheets
by keysersoze19 on May 20, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I see what you are saying Keyser, but
they also look for every single possible disadvantage an OL-man has, rather it be short arms, gives up more sacks, holding calls, false starts, and so on. It’s how the defensive coaches game plan for match ups and so forth.
I don’t know if that goes along with the thread, but they do use stats.
Stay thirsty my friends.
I would be at ease when someone shows me a thread
saying that someone of NFL importance said they were impress with the numbers an O-linmen put up, I have never herd such a thing
by keysersoze19 on May 20, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I found a few articles from NFL.com and Peter King that talk about OL stats
I’ve never heard a coach discuss QB rating. I’ve also never heard a coach talk about coffin corner punting either. Show me where coaches say they don’t value stats? All coaches say they don’t look at stats, just the score and then quote stats all day In their press conferences
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
What do you think are on those notes from game film?
They track wins by player, times beaten, blitzes picked up. Those are stats. They don’t write down “Player A did good”, they track how they did on what plays. That’s why the Eagles blitzed so much. They knew we couldn’t pick it up based on the film. They tracked our blitz pick up and found out that X% of the time we failed. Of course they say they watched film, that’s how they get the numbers. The stats don’t manifest themselves. What do you think the notes say? Davin Joseph is good. davit Joseph blocks well. Or Davin Joseph picked up 4 of the 5 blitzes?
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
And Martin Luther King said he had a Dream
But he did not say he had a dream that he was moon with some crackers, you are taking what I say and twisting it around, its immature not funny
by keysersoze19 on May 20, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sarcastic.
He is a trailblazer in teaching me that nobody pays attention to OL stats and that the “professionals” aren’t worrying about hardly anything. Not to mention that the concept of “Luck” does not exist. It’s rather ground breaking to have that kind of insight.
The Lewis and Clark of Bucem, if you will.
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