The Ring!
by TampaFSUfan on May 1, 2010 12:15 PM EDT
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Too much draft lately... let's take a break!
For much of the Buccaneers' 30 plus year history, a ring of honor was not a priority (‘cause we sucked), but with nearly all of the "core" players from the glory days retired, and the addition of our first honoree (Lee Roy Selmon), it's time to ask the question, Who's in and who's out?
The Mortal Locks:
Lee Roy Selmon- A restaurant, an expressway, and a hall of fame selection pretty much guarantee admission, so I won't bore you with the details. Lee Roy became the first Buc in the ring of honor last year during our victory over Green Bay (orange). Selmon is considered one of the greatest defensive linemen ever and certainly deserved to be the first Buc in the ring of honor.
Derrick Brooks- How many times all pro? 5 first team selections, 11 pro bowls, and a Defensive MVP. Brooks' accomplishments also include never missing a game and starting a ridiculous 221 games in a row. Derrick may be the greatest weak side linebacker in NFL history and don't forget he was a fabulous athlete during the beginning of his career. This guy could cover ground with the best of ‘em, a lot of people thought his future was at safety coming out of FSU. Linebacker worked out just fine for Brooks and the Bucs. DB is a lock to join Selmon in the "ring".
Waaaaaaren Sapp- If you were building a team and could pick any defensive tackle in NFL history, who would you pick? I would take 99. In his prime, Sapp was coming on every play and he was coming up the middle, where it was hard to help. He's one of the best 300 lbs + athletes in human history and was good for a sound bite to boot. Warren talked a lot and could back it up; I can't wait to hear his speech when he takes his rightful place in Buccaneer history.
Gene Deckerhoff- Hey there Buccaneer fans! If you face the northwest corner of the end zone you can see my name, in the ring!
Now to the controversy...
John Lynch- There's no question John is one of the most popular Bucs in team history. I loved watching Lynch light up opposing receivers as much as the next guy, and always enjoyed his attitude. Lynch made 5 pro bowls as a Buc and was selected to the All Pro team twice. However, I always thought Lynch was overrated as a player, his main role on defense often amounted to acting as a 4th linebacker on running downs and Lynch could not cover much ground in the secondary. He didn't make many splash plays and was never a guy opposing teams had to game plan for. I would take him on my team but not in my ring of honor. Verdict: Out!
Ronde Barber- 2008 was a really bad year for Ronde. In fact, it was embarrassing. In fact, it was so bad; it probably did irreparable damage to his legacy. In fact, it made me scream and yell and wonder if Ronde should be on the Today Show with his bro. Fortunately for him, he has played 11 other years in the NFL and has given this Buc fan many of my favorite memories (Philly anyone?). Ronde Barber makes big plays all over the football field; he finds the ball and then points out who he is. He is the one Buc on this list that I would argue was underrated for much of his career. Baber has 37 picks, 25 sacks, 7 TD's, 3 first team all pro selections, and is the second most durable player in team history (Brooks). Verdict: IN!
Mike Alstott- The A train whistle was cool. His highlight film might be the third best in NFL history (Sanders, Sayers), and if you needed a yard, this was your guy. Still, Alstott was wildly overrated and fumbled like Ronde's brother circa 2003. Mike was never the feature back and while he was entertaining, he just didn't have the career required to have his name in the ring. Verdict- Out! * The Bucs retired Mike's number but he is not currently in the ring of honor.
Monte Kiffin- I think Monte Kiffin should be in the NFL hall of fame. I really dislike how the league recognizes owners and announcers but not specialists and assistant coaches. Monte was the best assistant coach in the NFL for a decade and perfected a defense that is so widely used, you cant watch the NFL network for more than an hour at any point without hearing the phrase "Tampa 2". Oh yeah... his defense was ranked in the top 10 for 11 straight years and he had 2 of the better defenses in league history ('99, ‘02). Verdict: In!
Honorable mention: Hardy Nickerson, Paul Gruber, Shelton Quarles, Gerald McCoy(a little wishful thinking never hurt),Simeon Rice.
So that's my ring: Selmon, Brooks, Sapp, Barber, Kiffin, and Geno. What do you think?
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I heavily disagree on the A-Train.
The man’s number was retired for a reason. The man is simply legendary to the fanbase and to some groups outside. He was one of the faces of the new Bucs and with his work ethic made defending against us hassle even when our passing game was atrocious. Sure memories of his flaws get blocked out whenever he’s mentioned but the guy was so inspirational at the time that its hard not to.
I like him too but he's just didn't do enough
He spent a lot of time in grudens dog house.
by TampaFSUfan on May 1, 2010 1:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I like him too but he's just didn't do enough
He spent a lot of time in grudens dog house.
by TampaFSUfan on May 1, 2010 1:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Don't discount what he did before Gruden and at the beginning of his coaching stint.
I don’t remember him being in Dungy’s doghouse ever. Also, he definitely lost a little bit of his game after he got a metal disk in his neck (yes, he is bionic). Leadership, 2 yds whenever (or wherever) you needed it, automatic 4th and Goal TD, 100 yd rushing days as a fullback! These are a few of the many reasons he deserves our eternal admiration and to be mentioned with names like Larry Csonka, John Riggins, and Jim Taylor.
5 picks out of the first 100 in a draft saturated with talent. Yes, I'm optimistic.
by chuckyforpres on May 1, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Mentioned with Csonka, Riggins, and Taylor
I’m not sure what qualifies “mentioned with” but they all had way more yards than Alstott, with less games. Alstott = 5088 yards & 58 TDs, Csonka = 8081 yards & 64 (13 fewer games) TDs, Riggins = 11,352 yards & 104 TDs (1 fewer game) , and Taylor = 8597 yards & 83 TDs (26 fewer games).
Don’t get me wrong, I really liked Alstott on our team, but he is not really that close to those guys.
I wasn't insinuating that Alstott is better than those three,
just comparable in his ability to change the game with sheer power and will despite lacking the agility and speed most backs are known for. One thing to keep in mind with those stats is that Alstott did far more blocking on a regular basis than any of those greats thus cutting down the attempts significantly.
I believe Alstott will be in our Ring of Honor and the Hall of Fame without too much delay. The man had a reserved spot on the Pro Bowl roster and All-Pro list for a reason.
5 picks out of the first 100 in a draft saturated with talent. Yes, I'm optimistic.
by chuckyforpres on May 2, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Using Gruden's Judgement Does Not Win You Any Arguments
Gruden did not impress me with his personnel decisions. Ever. Alstott was the embodiment of what it meant to be a Buccaneer during the glory days (which ended after Gruden’s first season). The first three Bucs from that time period should be Sapp, Brooks, and Alstott.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing on gruden..
Just making the point. Mikey didn’t play as much as he could have
by TampaFSUfan on May 3, 2010 4:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Its just too bad that we didn't have a real strong GM during Grudens tenure
because the man could coach. We just gave up so much to get him initially that there was basically nothing to show for his first two drafts. Pity.
In my opinion
The ring of honor isn’t about how good you were, per se, but rather what you meant to the team and to the fans. As such, Lynch and Alstott should get the nod.
What you mean the team has a lot to do with how good you are
by TampaFSUfan on May 1, 2010 1:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Right, but that doesn't mean you are necessarily HOF caliber
It seemed like this was more an argument as to whether they could go HOF. Take Lynch, for example. In terms of league talent, he wasn’t good enough to be considered for the HOF, but he was a huge part of the success of the Tampa 2, and thus meant more to the team.
Doug Williams, Ricky Bell, Jimmy Giles, James Wilder, Bruce Hill, Mark Carrier ......Just to name a few.
May not have HOF stats but here are a couple names that had strong fan bases that could make for some good debating.
Errict Rhett?!?
He had two decent seasons, no speed to get to the corner, never averaged 4.0 yards a carry, and his whining about a new contract is what got Warrick Dunn drafted. How on Earth does THAT get your name permanently put up in the stadium?!?
I love Dunn, but he’s more a Falcon than a Buc.
Keyshawn was productive, but he spent 3.5 years here, and was a whiner as well. Dude, you have really set a LOW standard for a “Ring of Honor”. :-)
i dont think you can even make an argument for any of them
I thought about throwing Carrier on the honorable mention but he didn’t spend enough of his career in Tampa, Doug Williams could be the most overrated player ever (Joe Namath and Troy Aikman) and didnt spend much time here anyway, James Wilder made 1 pro bowl (in his one good yr). The rest you mentioned arent even close.
You can definitely make an argument for Williams
Especially now that he’s been working for the team for a few years too.
Also I’d like to see Bo Jackson in there just because it’s such a legendary story.
You can definitely make an argument for Williams
Especially now that he’s been working for the team for a few years too.
Also I’d like to see Bo Jackson in there just because it’s such a legendary story.
i dont think you can even make an argument for any of them
I thought about throwing Carrier on the honorable mention but he didn’t spend enough of his career in Tampa, Doug Williams could be the most overrated player ever (Joe Namath and Troy Aikman) and didnt spend much time here anyway, James Wilder made 1 pro bowl (in his one good yr). The rest you mentioned arent even close.
The Ring isnt the hall of fame
Its what you did for the team and what you meant to the team(via fan base). Alstott was the face of the franchise for years and is one of the biggest if not the biggest Buc star across seas so he will make it for sure. Dunn is the all-time leading rusher he will make it. The Ring is basically the All-time Buc team not just for players that go to the HOF.
My sentiments exactly
If any of you follow the Orlando Magic, it is like Darrell Armstrong, Nick Anderson, and Bo Outlaw. None of them were anywhere near good enough to be anything more than a blip on the radar for the league, but remain huge in Orlando because of what they meant to the team and the city.
I met Bo Outlaw once.
I was 17. He told me to stay in school. It was weird.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
This is a confusing article. First it is about the Bucs Ring, then it swerves towards the NFL Hall of Fame.
I would agree with all of your “ins and outs” for the NFL Hall of Fame, but as for the Bucs Ring. Meh, put em all in.
if you guys had your way the ring would have 25 players for one of the worst teams in league history!
theres def arguments for guys who wouldnt make the NFL hall of fame and there is a good argument for Dunn and Lynch and the A train but some of these are ridiculous. Im waiting to hear Clayton…
Just think your standard is a little high
The Ring should be fan based and seperate from the HOF. Otherwise we would hardly have anybody in it.
Hey...hey....he is the best blocking WR in Buc history!!
I guess my point was that I don’t really care that much about the Bucs ring of honor. Honor those who are talented enough to make the HOF. Otherwise it is just a watered down popularity contest, for a team that doesn’t have a long winning history to have enough players worthy of the HOF.
I would mention Spurlock before I mention Clayton
And his legacy is based on exactly 2 plays.
I would mention Spurlock before I mention Clayton
And his legacy is based on exactly 2 plays.
Man. I forgot him. That was a cool moment
He can’t be in, but damn that was fun
by TampaFSUfan on May 1, 2010 3:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Besides the Hall of Fame and the Ring of Honor
There’s also having your number retired to honor a player. Retiring numbers should be reserved for the extremely special players who did a lot for the team. The Hall of Fame is reserved for the best players. And the Ring of Honor should be there for the players who were good and meant a lot to the team, but the demands should be lower than the demands for retiring a number.
I think you're confusing the Ring of Honor with the Pro Football Hall of Fame
Your piece makes perfect sense if you’re talking about getting enshrined in the Professional Football Hall of Fame. Sapp and Brooks should be no-brainers; Lynch will probably be on the outside looking in. Barber probably deserves it but won’t get in because he wasn’t a pure cover corner. Alstott has no chance.
But we’re talking about the Bucs Ring of Honor. Ownership will decide who gets inducted there, and since they just created it, we have no pattern to judge how they’ll proceed with it. I’ll tell you one thing: if they retired Alstott’s number, that’s a pretty good clue about how they feel about him. I’m fairly certain he’s going to get in.
In fact, I think every single person you listed eventually gets in, plus Hardy Nickerson, Paul Gruber, Jimmie Giles, James Wilder, Tony Dungy and John McKay.
No Barber in HOF?
Seriously? The only CB in NFL history to have 25+ sacks and 35+ INTs and he won’t make the HOF? Come ’on man.
I was talking 'bout whether Chucky
should be in the ring of honor.
I don't have a Sig!
by 4QB on May 2, 2010 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry I was replying to the Slow Joe and the post itself.
As far as Gruden…… He did bring us a SB but nothing else looks that good for him IMO. As far as coaching I personally feel Dungy/McKay tandem did more for the team than Gruden/Allen tandem. But they probably will due to the SB.
Gruden in the Ring of Honor
Again, we have no idea how the Glazers will run their Ring of Honor, but Gruden really only had one great season. It was a phenomenal season; a fantastic story. But it was just one.
But hey, he got us a ring. Maybe that’s enough for the Glazers.
Hey, I hope he does
I think he deserves it. But knowing how the Hall of Fame Committee works, I have my doubts. Barber has never generated a lot of press, plays in a small market, and isn’t, like I said, a pure cover corner. He’s the best nickel corner in the history of the league, not to mention probably the best blitzer from the corner position, but there are no other CBs in the Hall that got in with those accolades. So voters would have to make the conscious decision to start something new.
Which they happen to be very bad at.
NO
Had he waited another year to win the Superbowl, it would have been his victory and not partially Tony’s in some eyes. As is stands now, I would put Dungy in the ring before Gruden, because Dungy was the man who changed the culture of losing to winning and enabled that Superbowl. I give Gruden an accolade for pushing the team over the top, but his body of work afterwards is wanting.
Of course I don't get to pick and
Your right alstott will make it but there not putting 15 guys in the ring of honor. Giles wilder? You can’t be serious about those guys
by TampaFSUfan on May 3, 2010 4:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I could see it
I have a feeling that the Bucs will eventually want more of the “old timers” on the Ring, and—let’s be honest—there’s not a lot to choose from. Giles was a terrific tight end, and Wilder was basically the offense in the late 70s. How many running backs carry the ball over 40 times nowadays?
I’m certainly not saying they’re Hall of Famers or anything, but I could see them getting on the Ring.
Again, none of us have any idea how the Glazers will handle it. If they only induct one a year (or less) and they are really choosy, maybe only NFL Hall of Famers get in. But I doubt that. My feeling is they’ll choose guys who played most of their career as Bucs and meant a lot to the organization. So a lot of the guys I mentioned qualify.
wilder had a rather short career
and in some ways his performances didn’t help the team overall. Although it can be argued he suffered because ownership drove away our good QB (Williams) and our coaching changes (to Bennett) hurt the team to where Wilder’s massive rushing stats had no effect on the wins count.
I’d include Giles as one of the better offensive weapons the Bucs had during the 1979-83 era when the Bucs were good enough to make playoff appearances, and as Giles was one of the best TEs in team history.
Witty's 2010 Draft review is full of meaty goodness. What you mean, you're vegan?! Sigh. Just read it.
He was the lone bright spot
on a miserable team. His career was shortened by overwork. You also can’t punish him for having poor teammates. The OL was terrible, yet he was a one-man wrecking crew and still has one of the greatest combined yards from scrimmage seasons – ever. Overshadowed by Eric Dickerson that year, but well deserving as a Buc honoree.
My Ring Of Honor
It would go along with Brooks and Sapp as no-brainer additions, but there’s a difference between a Hall of Fame and a Ring of Honor: the Ring is with the team, best players we had that may not be HoF-bound but who contributed to making the Bucs as good a team as possible.
For that, you have to include Alstott. Yes, he had fumble issues. His bigger problem was his poor blocking, something no true FB should ignore. But between 1996 and 2002 there was no one else you could trust with the ball inside the 5-yard line (and sometimes the 20-yard line!) to get you that touchdown. The Bucs never had as sure a red-zone weapon since his retirement.
You also have to include Lynch. League-wide he was one of the top 10 hardest hitters the game’s ever seen. And he was part of a defensive lineup (Brooks, Sapp, Nickerson, Barber, Quarles, Rice) that between 1996 and 2002 was one of the best units ever (the 2000 Ravens and 1985 Bears may be slightly better than the units we fielded in 1999 and 2002).
Barber deserves HoF consideration for his unique CB stat (over 20 sacks and 20 INTs in a career), but earns a lock on a Ring of Honor spot for being part of the 1996-2002 defensive era.
The other thing you’re overlooking is the earlier eras such as the McKay years. Yes, there were bad years then but also good ones (our first few playoff appearances). From that period, our Ring of Honor ought to include Coach McKay (first coach, first playoff coach, quotable wit that kept us all sane), Jimmie Giles (perhaps the best TE we’ve ever had, unless Kellen Winslow gets like 20 TDs this season), and perhaps Ricky Bell (tragic short life due to illness). From the dark ages (the mid-80s to early-90s) we need to include Paul Gruber, the best OT to ever play the game and who suffered for being on bad teams that were outside his control. We also should consider WR Mark Carrier, a handful of Pro Bowl appearances and one of the few players from that period to not totally embarrass himself.
Witty's 2010 Draft review is full of meaty goodness. What you mean, you're vegan?! Sigh. Just read it.
Refer to earlier comment about
Having 15 people in the ring of honor! We don’t have the history to justify that. Just because someone was a bright spot doesent mean there deserving. Did you say Paul gruber was the best ot to ever play? This is Paul gruber i’m talking to. Isn’t it?
by TampaFSUfan on May 4, 2010 9:57 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He is. It's called the toilet I take a leak in before every Bucs game.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
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