Have we seen the future? The Bucs offense against the Arizona Cardinals
by Sander on Nov 6, 2010 9:00 AM EDT
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Remember last season, when the Bucs were supposed to be a downhill running team, throwing deep off play-action? When the sexy new zone-blocking scheme was supposed to combine with a talented young offensive line and a 1-2 punch of a healthy Cadillac Williams and a newly acquird Derrick Ward to dominate teams on the ground? When a competition between 4 quarterbacks was supposed to let the best player come to the surface, who would then throw to incredibly talented Antonio Bryant, great receiving tight end Kellen Winslow Jr. and no-longer-in-the-dog-house Michael Clayton?
Yeah, that didn't work out so well. After firing Offensive Coordinator Jeff Jagodzinski mere weeks before the season started, the Bucs produced one of the worst offenses in the league. The Bucs couldn't do diddly-poo offensively, they couldn't run the ball, they didn't try to run the ball, they couldn't complete a pass: they sucked. They went through 3 different QBs, had an incredibly poor offensive line and threw more interceptions than they had offensive touchdowns. Last year was a disastrous offensive performance that in no way, shape or form resembled the downhill running, play-action offense that we were promised.
But on Sunday that changed. For the first time in over a year the Bucs looked like they finally had the offense they had promised.
It all started with Legarrette Blount. He'd shown he could run the ball against the Rams the week before, but the Bucs really asked him to carry the load this week. And with 22 carries for 120 yards and 2 touchdowns he certainly did. Blount is a powerful runner between the tackles who has a little shiftiness in him, but is fundamentally a power back who will get the tough yards inside. With Cadillac Williams in the game, opponents can ignore the run to some degree and focus on defending the pass. With Legarrette Blount, this is no longer possible as he's capable of gaining consistent yards on the ground.
But Blount brings another dimension the offense has been missing: effective play action passes. Before the game against the Cardinals, the Bucs often tried to spread the field to present Freeman with options and defeat a defense that way. But against the Cardinals the two biggest plays for the Bucs - a 47-yard touchdown pass to Mike Williams and a 53-yard pass down to the 1-yard-line to Arrelious Benn - happened with everyone aligned inside the numbers and when they had run-heavy personnel in the game. Let's take a look at the two plays:
2-8-ARZ 47 (9:07) J.Freeman pass deep middle to M.Williams for 47 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
The Bucs have 3 tight ends, one wide receiver and one running back in the game. John Gilmore is on the right side of the line, Ryan Purvis is behind the left side of the line as an H-Back, Kellen Winslow is to the right in the slot, and Mike Williams is to the left in the slot. Everyone is aligned close to the core of the formation here, keeping the defense close together. Having two tight ends aligned close to the formation allows them to help out in pass protection as well. On this play the defense is obviously anticipating run, with 8 players in the box. The defenders are initially fooled by play action, which helps give Freeman a clean pocket to throw to Mike Williams, who is running a post-route deep down the field. More importantly, the play action fools the deep safety, allowing Mike Williams to get behind him for the touchdown. This was the kind of thing we had been missing all year: the ability to get an explosive passing play out of a running formation.
1-10-TB 46 (6:16) J.Freeman pass deep left to A.Benn to ARZ 1 for 53 yards (K.Rhodes).
Something similar happens on Benn's 53-yard reception. This time there are two tight ends, two receivers and one running back in the game, but the formation is very similar. Benn and Williams are both inside the numbers on the right and left respectively, while Kellen Winslow and John Gilmore are on the right side of the offensive line. This time, the Cardinals don't bring up an 8th man into the box, though they do have 10 defenders within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage. Again Freeman hooks up deep with a receiver running a post route, and again they get an explosive passing play out of a run-heavy formation. This time the deep safety wasn't actually fooled by play action, but Benn collides with him which gives the receiver just the step he needs to catch the ball unimpeded.
Against the Cardinals the Buccaneers found ways to create big plays from run-heavy formations. Now it remains to be seen if they'll be able to do the same thing against tougher competition, but the combination of Blount's tough inside running and Freeman's big arm has the potential to create a lot of these plays. An interesting note is that this kind of offense is exactly what made and makes Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan succesful NFL quarterbacks. Freeman has certainly shown he can win games without a running game too, but this style of offense will make it a lot easier for him.
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Haw
couldn’t do diddly-poo offensively
Guffaw!
For the first time in over a year the Bucs looked like they finally had the offense they had promised.
And to think, all this time all the team really needed was to play the Cardinals, who are 31st in point allowed, 27th in yards allowed, 24th in Defensive DVOA.
Furthermore, the Cardinals almost always play with 8 in the box. It is basically their base formation rather than them “anticipating run” as you say. Check the tape in their last two games, versus the Hawks or Saints, and despite those not being running teams they still have 8 in the box and/or 10 near the line of scrimmage most of the time. Wilson has been playing as an extra linebacker for most of the time the past few years, but especially this year.
That’s not to say it’s not playaction doing its work here, it’s to say the Cards are a D that stacks the line of scrimmage and you shouldn’t read anything into that.
Well since you put it like that
Blount gaining 120 yards and 2 touchdowns is even more impressive since they had 8 in the box all of the time as you say. You make it sound like mike williams hasn’t been making plays until we palyed the cardinals. Benn hasn’t even started a handful of games but his impact was felt on that play and he has a few other nice promising plays. The bucs have a offense that should be feared by the 1st ranked defense as well as the 31 ranked cardinals. You can say what you want about the stats but the bottom line is that the cardinals have 4 potential pro bowlers or past pro bowlers on the defense and the bucs exposed them. Dockett, Porter and DRC and Rhodes. This is the same team that Picked off Drew brees numerous times and beat the Saints so don’t make it sound like they are slouches.
I am going to read alot into the bucs offense and I am reading pages and pages of highlights in the present and future.The bucs have 4 guys with unbelievable Size and Speed and those are the 2 things you can’t teach. Freeman 6’6, 250 – Mike Will and Regus 6’2, 220 and blount 6’0, 250
Well, we have possibly seen a glimpse of the future
but until the OL is seriously addressed, it will never be fully realized. I hope some aggressive changes are made early in the off-season so all the mini camps, etc. will have the new pieces in place to spend maximum time learning together.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 6, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Having 8 in the box doesn't equate being a good run D
The Cardinals are a terrible 3-4 D. They’re 25th in Run yards allowed (in both YPG and YPC), 24th in run D DVOA.
The bucs have a offense that should be feared by the 1st ranked defense as well as the 31 ranked cardinals.
Really? Because you faced a good D and you were blown out, only gaining any yardage and points when the game was well out of hand and you were playing your second O.
You’re making some lofty claims here. Do you have facts to back them them up or is this just fan-speak? Because if it is, that’s fine, but I won’t pay it too much mind, since this was a rational article and I gave it a rational reply based on my relative advantage of knowledge of the Cards D over Sander.
This is the same team that Picked off Drew brees numerous times and beat the Saints so don’t make it sound like they are slouches
“Make it sound”? I’m pointing to statistics. I’m not making stuff up, this are simply facts.
Is that the same Brees that threw 4 interceptions against the Browns? Are you going to argue the Browns have a good defense?
by Thomas Beekers on Nov 6, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Get off of here you sack
If at first you don't succeed, try the ^&%^$% harder!!
by Hell Rayser on Nov 6, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It doesn't bother me. Should be open season on anybody that's not a Bucs fan that comes here and runs their mouth.
I’m sure if any of us went over to the Seahawks site and talked like this, they’d rip us for it.
I'm not negative, I'm just telling you how it is.
Really?
Because it seems to me Vasilii’s just making reasonable points. It’s not like he’s coming on here just to spew at the Bucs, he’s trying to reasonably explain his position. It happens to be a negative stance on the Bucs, but it’s not like he’s alone in that.
No, he’s an intelligent troll, or at least behaving like one. Notice how eager he is to reference the Steelers game, despite one of the linchpins of this piece being the emergence of Blount, Cardinals’ defensive rankings take place after last week’s result, etc. If he simply has a dim view of the Bucs’ offense, you still have to wonder why he — clearly not a fan of this team — would think it was a worthwhile use of his time to find a Bucs blog on which to educate the rest of us. It’s not as though he works for a sports news company, and outside of fandom and entertainment, the arguments really have no utility. Therefore I think it’s likely he’s simply a troll. With further prodding you would doubtlessly realize that any qualification upon which an opposing argument rested would subject to his or her permission.
Well
you still have to wonder why he — clearly not a fan of this team — would think it was a worthwhile use of his time to find a Bucs blog on which to educate the rest of us.
Sander and I have known one another for some time now, well before he started writing here, and I am interested in reading what he writes.
by Thomas Beekers on Nov 6, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
The stats don't tell the whole story
Like Morris says, Stats are for losers. We had caddy as the starter in both of those blowouts and Benn was not a starter either. These are two huge parts that have made this offense come alive a bit and i only expect them to become bigger parts as the season goes on. You can throw out the first 5 games IMO as far as the offensive stats.
I am a bucs fan and i was a bucs fan when we won super bowl, when we were 3 and 13 last year and I am one for many more years. I have no problem saying I am a fan. I only watch bucs games faithfully so I couldn’t tell you what the Browns Def is about but they do have a few wins and a high draft pick at CB but you tell me if they are a good D? If they picked off Brees 4 Times, i must say that they were a good D on that day and in the NFL you just need to play your best on Sundays.
Why would we throw out the first 5 games as far as stats go?
Thats a ridiculous statement. You dont get to cherry pick stats.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
Why not cherry pick stats
People pick the negative stats when they want to write articles. My main point was that the stats don’t tell the whole story. We were letting the young players like benn and blount learn the offense early on. No one really thought that Caddy after two knee surguries was going to be the ANSWER at RB or that Sammie was a starting WR but they started because they knew the plays and they were all we had. Bucs offense may not be feared (yet) but you got to respect it. Anytime you have a 6’6 , 250 lbs QB with a big arm, a 6’0 , 250 lb RB and two 6’2 , 220 WR coming at you full speed. You better tighten up that chin strap and be prepared for a collision. Reality is that DB and LB Will make tackles but how many times will they stand in and go head on? How many tackles will they whif on ? Those are the questions that need to answered, because if they do these things, you can very easily see 7 go on the board, something that scares every defensive coordinator and defense.
I'm pretty sure I didn't pick out negative stats.
I picked out the main offensive stats. You can make any team look good or bad if you start picking and choosing. The stats I picked are very representative of our team.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
how is that representative of our current team
Caddy has not run the ball the last 2 games and Blount has 192 yards, 5.2 ypc and 3 TD’s so why not use the current stats vs the stats with the old personnel? You could use the same relevant stats but i would like to see these same stats over the last 2 games because that is more reflective of our current direction. We don’t have Caddy running and we don’t have sammie being overpowered outside as #2 wr. Those 2 didn’t get stats because they were taking on a bigger role than they were capable of handling.
That is all that I am saying. Your stats are fine. I just am a bucs fan and I am riding the Blount train and Regus. I know you are too so lets make the stats look good for the fans. HAHAHA. You know stas can make us look good so let me see some of those. I have read the negative stats for over a year now.
LOL
This blog isn’t here to make us feel warm and fuzzy. Its mainly for discussing point of views and if you only include the good stats then it becomes very bias. If we were to go your direction, we would sound like buccaneers.com…seriously i love the site but they need to cut back on the bias…in the last video they called Penn one of the best tackles in the league.
"You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four."
-Dan Birdwell
First of all 2 games is a very small sample. Second, by looking at the last two games there are an incredible amount of variables that could sway it one way or the other.
Opponent, weather, personnel. Blount has been fantastic. But what about the OL? It has looked much different the last two games than the previous 5. I used the full spectrum of games and teams to illustrate where the Bucs stood as an offense. Im not making the case for one RB over the other, but rather how the Bucs offense has performed all year.
It was the same thing last year with QBs. We dont start separating out certain games to inflate stats. Otherwise we might as well pick one play per game and say we average 50 yards per pass or something. This article was an objective look at how the entire offense has performed broadly. We’re middle of the league and 5-2, I would think thats encouraging.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
I think the more interesting look
would be to see those “main” statistics from 2 weeks ago, then see where they are now. If they’ve gone up, then the team has improved, and it may be more likely we should expect better than those “average” stats from the whole season. If the team is still the same statistically, then we should expect the same.
That just ignores luck and the opposition
You can’t draw those far-reaching conclusions from a small sample size of stats.
Playing two poor teams in a row...
should conceivably make your stats look better, but it is not a very accurate measure. You can’t do that anymore than taking the NO and PIT stats to show how terrible we are.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 6, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Not looking to ingore stats
Just saying that LeGarrett Blount has been getting more opportunities the past two weeks, the O-line has had Larsen, Zuttah and Lee in the past two weeks. Comparing stats from the first 5 games to the stats of the past two games would show a difference between the team that started the year and the team we have now. Also, Benn has been getting more opportunities the past two weeks. I’m just talking offensive stats, as the defense hasn’t really changed much in that time. As for opposition, of course we played two tough teams early, but we also played a couple teams that are no better than the Rams and Cardinals we’ve played the past two weeks. It’s just a matter of seeing change and how it’s affected the team.
I think it's more of the difference of running styles than who's in the line right now.
Even with the starters in the game, Blount did the same thing, and unfortunately so did Caddy.
I'm not negative, I'm just telling you how it is.
I think you are the only one who got what I was saying
The bucs have no control over what team goes out there on sundays, just like they can’t control injuries or any of those things. All the bucs can do is play the schedule they have been given and deal with the things that go with it.
If you want to go into all of the would haves and could haves of variables, you could make the assumtion about what if grimm would have knocked that pass down in the steelers game or what if talib caught the int that hit him in both of his hands. Football is about variables. I can say that if those things went our way, the game would have been swayed to a more even game because it only takes 1 play to jump start a team . Such as the Geno Hayes INT for TD vs Cardinals or Ronde Barber INT and 92 yard return vs Browns to name a few.
I understand that this article was objective. Call the teams what you want but both of those teams have won more games than the Cowboys, Vikings, 49ers and Bengals. The NFL is about wins and losses. A win is a win, if they are on the field with you , your job is to beat them. There is no seperate standard for certain teams because they don’t have the househould names or the record of a winning organization. No one said last year , o we not gonna count the bucs game because they are 0 and 9. They took that win , just like a win vs the Colts or patriots or any other top team. Beating any team in NFL is an accomplishment because on any given sunday you can be beat if you take things like this for granted.
I agree with you about "a win is a win"...
unless you are trying to use victories to make some kind of statistical comparison between teams. Then the variables become all important. Even if 2 teams played the exact same schedules, both home and away, it still would not be accurate because of inclement weather, injuries, etc.
Also why a team that is 5-2 could be much worse than one with say… a 2-5 record.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 7, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
You're making excuses and playing the "what if" game.
None of those what ifs happened. The stats are representative of the team that was put on the field and played the way they did. You want to take away games Caddy was the starter and you want to assume that Talib and Grimm made plays they didnt. Yes we got the wins, but those stats are what they are at this point. Its 7 games of data and after 7 games we are middle of the pack in those categories.
To finish middle of the pack in categories but to be in the top 8 in record means there are some things happening that arent being discussed. The +8 turnover margin is part of that. YOu dont have to finish tops in the league in passing yards or offense to be a good team. Look at the CHargers. All this is showing is that we arent an elite offense, but you know what? Who cares if we arent an elite offense, but lets not pretend we have the top NFL offense. There is room for improvement on all sides of the ball.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
Are you saying the Browns aren't good on D?
They have been very good on Defense this year. The biggest problem with the Browns is they don’t have a QB.
Now to the point of the blow outs. We lost to both the Steelers and Saints before some of the players mentioned in the article were the starters. Now I’m not saying it would have changed the out come since both of those teams are very good.
But hey at least we weren’t blown out by the Raiders….
That's a fair point
It’s more about the style of offense, though. There are plenty of defenses where we won’t be able to pull this off, simply because of quality of personnel. But this is the style of offense we’ll be moving toward, I think.
ANd I didn’t know the Cards did play with 8 men near the line as a standard, though the free safety biting on play action was the real killer on the Mike Williams TD.
Some of us care about getting an accurate assesment of where we stand.
...the Seminole guy from the other site.
i agree, but thats why they play the games.. i believe than any team can beat any other team on any given sunday... theres a lot of things stats dont measure like who wants it more, whos playing with more energy, things of that nature
by Carlitin1988 on Nov 7, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Grit, heart, hustle are all bourn out in stats. There is no "heart" category.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
If the Bucs win I'm happy, regardless of what happens
But if I want to analyze how the team is likely to do in the future, I’m not going to look at the number of wins and then say “They’ll win more!”
That’s what stats are for.
i agree with you sander, and i feel the same way, but some of us want us to be 0-7 because of how are stats look
would you rather be the number one ranked offense and defense and have a losing record ? and im not trying to pick on the chargers again lol
by Carlitin1988 on Nov 7, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
Im pretty sure no one wants us to be 0-7.
Its being objective instead of being a blind homer. Nowhere did anyone say “Man, we should be 0-7, we’re lucky” or anything like that. I’ve said over and over, if the Bucs finished 32nd in every category but went 16-0, I’d be ecstatic. The stats can help give us an idea of what type of team we are long term. You cant continue to win games ranked 32nd in every category.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
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