Mark Dominik: Genius
by jarldg on Nov 21, 2010 12:00 PM EST
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PrintThe new GM and head coach combination have been able to turn around a team that was undoubtedly in peril last season. They hadn't an identity, and this was because they really couldn't do anything well enough to hang their hat on. Tampa couldn't run the ball, and Byron Leftwich was just a waste trying to throw it. Once they put in Josh Freeman things began to turn around with an immediate win against Green Bay in those costumes.
Up until Freeman began to start I was hopeful. The difference that his play instilled in me and arguably the fanbase as a whole was a feeling of optimism. Both are within the same ballpark, but crossing your fingers at the end of a game is a lot more unnerving than believing there's a legitimate chance for victory. Mark Dominik is a major contributor to this relief.
You could start by claiming that Dominik is a psychic. I'd be inclined to believe that- evidenced by his trade of Gaines Adams as well as the discarding of Antonio Bryant. Without Bryant, money was saved and it gave an opportunity for Mike Williams to start as well as he has. The Adams trade amounted to Arrelious Benn who seems to be an emerging impact player.
These two moves ameliorated the once pathetic corps of receivers Tampa fans endured consistently for years. Bryant had an excellent 2008, and Joey Galloway was able to string three good years together, however there has never been options behind those number 1 players. Now, the options seem to be unlimited. Mike Williams is going to be a star, Benn appears to be a solid number 2, Sammie Stroughter is the shifty slot receiver, and Michael Spurlock can play in a pinch. Also, arguably one of the best pass catching tight ends in the league, Kelen Winslow II, will bail out Freeman on his worst throws.
Winslow plainly makes the GM look good. Though he had a mouth on him in Miami and never seemed content in Cleveland, Dominik pulled the trigger and traded a 2nd and 5th round pick to get him in the 2009 off season. Fans and pundits worried that the Tight End would destroy the locker room and miss games due to the fact he had been plagued with injuries. Last season he was the most reliable receiver on the Bucs roster, has played every game since coming to Florida, and still shows great hands.
Drafting the troubled Mike Williams invoked a similar response as the Winslow trade. Williams has been nominated for Rookie of the Week five times and is making a strong case to earn Rookie of the Year honors. His recent arrest for speeding has been the first sign of immaturity. Up to that point he's been a model player; the first of Tampa's drafted rookies to sign a contract and reporting in the offseason for personal work with Freeman.
Dominik and Raheem have been hitting on their late draft picks, which is something fans aren't used to. Sammie Stroughter is a starting slot receiver, and Cody Grimm has filled in well for Tanard Jackson. Erik Lorig started against the Panthers, and Dekota Watson may be starting his second straight game if Quincy Black doesn't play today, and performed admirably. Considering the fact that all of these are seventh round draft picks, management has an impressively high late round success rate.
Let's not forget the most recent acquisition that has yielded the most recent production: Tennessee's castoff, LeGarrette Blount. When he stuck another college player and got into a tiff during camp, many rolled their eyes and overlooked him. Dominik greedily snatched him up once he was on the market. I've been excited about this animal for weeks and am very pleased with his demonstration on Sundays. Not only does he give the offense a high quality running game, but he single handedly stalls the defense in order to give Josh Freeman breathing room.
Last year I watched games and expected them to lose. I wanted to see the young guys progress and see a team develop. When they won games I was elated, but mostly surprised. The complexion of the franchise has completely changed, and at this point I feel I'm watching a winner- a contender. The best part being that young players and the entire unit will keep improving. Since most of these guys are just now being allowed into bars, this could be a great sign for years to come. Mark Dominik was paramount to this improvement.
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Perhaps we should save the term "genius" for...
people like Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstein, Jonas Salk and the like.
The ghosts of Michael Clayton, Reggie Brown and Brett Bowden demand it.
great comment!
Listen up, doc, your rhyme's worth piss in the pot. You be pickin' the lock, when will it stop? You can never get to the top. Wack emcees make me laugh like my ticklish spot.
really bud?
The “genius” was obvious in context of football. & you’re essentially saying that the guy has to be perfect. SO lame…
Yeah... really
Even in “football” terms, that is a word that is saved for greats like Bill Walsh, Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick. When you can play anybody and win, not just teams of a collective 17-59. Dom has made improvements to the team – no doubt. Could these things have been done better?
Probably. Could these things have been done worse? Definitely.
Freeman, Williams, Blount and Winslow have all been great additions.
Leftwich, Clayton, Brown and Bowden have all been poor ones.
The rest are still auditioning for a 3-13 team. Results of this will not be evident for a couple more seasons. Somebody still has to line up and play, good or bad, so until we become anything more than the “Kings of the Nerd Table” in the school cafeteria, I will refute the “genius” label in any context.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 22, 2010 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
Leftwich
was the backup on a Super Champion. Taking a flyer out on him to hold the fort while a probable green rookie/hopefully franchise QB learns the ropes is not a bad decision.
Again with Clayton—-a good decision, in terms of he was really good the year almost nobody is(rookie WR), & they figured without Gruden, he’d @ least be good again. Not a great decison.
Reggie Brown—-my god, who cares. Another flyer on a bridge player, waiting for Benn & Williams to emerge. Not dumb.
Bowden wasn’t a good pick, esp considering who else was there(ahem, Blount or a DB).
So wait—-you’re essentially saying you don’t think Freeman, Blount, Benn, Williams, Winslow, & Penn are good. “Genius” was a bit strong. What WASN’T strong was citing small, tiny failures on Dom’s part to refute it. Frankly, @ this point, you’re both wrong.
by liquidmuse3 on Nov 22, 2010 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
If signing a "not so good" veteran back-up...
was not a bad decision, then we should have just kept Jeff Garcia instead of signing Leftwich. He was already familiar with the WRs and is a better QB.
The Clayton decision was just money, albeit WAY to much for a scrub. But what it did do is piss off the teams best WR at the time (Antonio Bryant), and instantly caused the locker room complaining that ultimately caused him to leave. It was far more than just the waste of money. It was an insult to players that actually deserved raises but did not get one.
WR Reggie Brown cost us a 6th rounder – for nothing in return. He was going to be cut by PHI anyway. As did Bowden. As for Penn, just how many other players did Dom, who was the director of pro scouting under Gruden, lobby for but was denied? You don’t really know, so you mention the one good signing you are aware of. He could have recommended 20 bad players and were all shot down by Bruce Allen. Why is Donald Penn “Doms” find anyway, because GM Bruce Allen was the one who actually signed him.
Pre-2009, when it worked out – it was Doms idea. When it didn’t, it was Grudens fault.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 22, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
NO
Because Jeff Garcia clearly was a “look out for #1” sort of guy, which comes from being denied chances his whole career—-you really think he was gonna let go of another starting opportunity to help out Freeman? Doubtful.
& my god—-how many times do we have to see a Garcia-type eek us to 9-7, but never more, because he gives up on the route progressions about a route & a half in. A. Bryant was mostly a punk, but he did have a great quote about it, something along the lines of “If Jeff doesn’t see you on his 1st read, just start running around, because he’s not getting anywhere NEAR a 3rd progression”.
A.Bryant was famous(@ least in the organization)for demanding the ball a bit too much, & couple that with a spotty past, about to get Paid, & thwarting Free’s development, &—-the Bucs thought they saw enough. Clearly that was the right decision, seeing as he’s watching the games now just like you.
Bryant had a bum knee, hadn’t proven much beyond the one year here(other than being a talented d*ck), & they asked him to prove it again with the franchise tag. He didn’t.
I disagreed with trading for Reggie Brown, flat out, @ the time. So ok, Bryant & Bowden were flops as 6th rounders—-guess what, I’ll take the bounty of undrafted rookies & 7th rounders Dom HAS hit on as more than a fair trade.
Dominik—-Jovan Haye, Shelton Quarles, Donald Penn—-FOR NOTHING, a RDT who was a worthy bridge between Sapp & McCoy, a fine MLB successor for Hardy, & a very good LT.
Dom’s job before GM was to find talent on other teams who were underutilized—-it’s why it was so surprising he missed on Ward, et al, but not surprising his success with the practice squad pickoffs this year.
All of the above are facts, bud. I give it to you when a Dom signing doesn’t work out(Clayton included). Again, I LOVED Gruden(pay attention, I said before I wanted him here 20 years), & he won us a SB with B. Johnson, M. Pittman, K. McCardell, R. McDaniel, R. Oben, all Gruden signings that helped the offense finally measure up to the defense.
But the drafts after he ran off McKay—-Clayton(yuck), Caddy(not an every down back, even though we ran him to death when he got here), Davin Joseph(a good, not great RG)—-it’s generally accepted(i.e., was quoted at the time)that Gaines was Monte’s pick, & Aqib was Allen’s pick(a blind squirrel success)…other than that, what did those drafts produce, really? But there was your great coach, given freedom to “shop for the groceries”, &—-no deep, guiding direction in drafting, & the Garcias & A. Bryants leading us to 9-7 every year. No sir. Eventually, I saw a great coach alone wasn’t greatness.
Yet this is what you want…
*Brown & Bowden
were flops as 6th rounders.
Yes... I would be totally happy with 9-7 every year
Bruce Allen was the problem – not Jon Gruden. As I have said before, firing Allen and keeping Gruden through his contract was the correct answer. He would have definitely kept us from going 3-13. Raheem Morris could actually concentrate on, and learn how, to lead a defense. In theory, the very same players could have still been taken by Dom, but probably no panic signings like Reggie Brown, etc.
Leftwich is a joke of a QB that has never won anything. Ever. Immobile and a wicked slow release. He was the back up on an awesome running team, and was paid to hand the ball off and not lose the game. Limited game plan compared to a throwing team, like IND or NE. He has absolutely no touch on his passes, at all, and Garcia is much more of a cerebral QB that could have helped speed the development of Freeman. Plus he came from a great OFF system, Bill Walshs system, and learned from the very best. Furthermore, you honestly have no earthly idea what Jeff Garcia would, or would not, have agreed to do here in regards to mentoring Freeman.
Dom is pretty “hit and miss” with his pro personnel decisions, much like his predecessors. That was supposed to be his “thing” if I recall. Ward, Leftwich, Brown were all super sucky additions here and a waste of time and effort.
Dom is still learning, much like everyone else associated with TB. Would like people that already know what, and what not, to do.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 22, 2010 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
Leftwich was a terrible choice
Perhaps less terrible if the assumption was our offensive line would be good. But still a weird choice. But at least he could make the throws – Garcia couldn’t make the throws anymore, not anything other than short throws anyway. See Hasselbeck in Seattle. I don’t think either guy would’ve been the right choice if you wanted to groom Freeman. At least give McCown a chance then.
The problem with getting people that are good and already know what and what not to do is that those guys aren’t on the open market very often.
No... they are not. Very rare indeed.
Which is exactly why you get one when you can. We definitely have the money to spend, we have the super low payroll, we have the awesome city/climate and a good nucleus of young players.
All we need are the big boy “peaches” to do something about it…
Garcia did not have the arm to make the throws – he never did. Just like Montana or Young. But he did know WHERE to throw it. Freeman has the arm strength for sure. I didn’t like Leftwich as a student of the game. Freeman can figure out how to throw picks and get sacked on his own.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 22, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
throw picks & get sacked?
two things he’s not doing, led by these “green” coaches & personnel guys you’re so deriding.
Again—-Gruden doesn’t pick up Free, most likely. He sticks with Garcia. NO THANK YOU.
yes, but the team would...
know that Jeff Garcia would not have been helpful. Clearly, they wanted that veteran bridge for Free, & they decided Garcia wasn’t it. The “new” regime were around Garcia everyday for two years, you’d think they’d know. & funny 1)he asked to be released from the Raiders, essentially because he knew they were committed to JaMarcus Russell for the future, & Garcia knew he was better than Russell was. What if he made that same determination with Free his first year(who was VERY green when he first came in)? You put your eggs in Garcia, & now you’re playing Johnson & Free before they’re ready, because Garcia wanted out. The fact is, we just should’ve kept McCown. 2)why has no other team picked up Garcia, &/or, why hasn’t he signed? Maybe because he wants to start, & not mentor a young kid.
Sooo…you’re putting Penn, Quarles, & Haye—-3 guys who started at 3 of the top 4 key positions on the team, acquired for nothing & no one else wanted—-against a guy expected to share the carries(Ward), a part-time bridge quarterback(Lefty), & a guy @ most expected to be the 3rd receiver(Brown)—-AWESOME, yeah, let’s call that hit & miss. Logic much? Reaching much?
Here’s two things—-
1)Gru would not have been happy taking personnel orders from Dom, a probable kid in his eyes, & a McKay acolyte. & there just aren’t a whole lot of experienced, Super Bowl winning GMs out there(well, McKay was had been demoted from Atlanta ;o). The fact remains that, as painful as it was to lose Gruden…he did win with McKay’s team. I.e., he wrote his own demise…
2)Just like you misunderstood “genius” in this context—-you misunderstood my “9-7 every year”. In this scenario(indeed, the scenario the Glazers saw playing out like groundhog’s day), the team never wins a Super Bowl, yet, doesn’t have the draft status to get a Freeman or a McCoy. I thought you wanted greatness? The scenario you describe(Garcia, Gruden as GM, 9-7 for infinity)is MEDIOCRE.
The fact remains, just like casual fans who cry “We want free agents!” when there are no real good ones that year…all you can cry is “Bring me a winning coach!”…when there are none who have built their own SUPER BOWL winning franchises floating out there, & none of them will accept a strong GM @ this point in their careers. You’re grasping @ fantasy.
Um, well instead of blaming Garcia and Gruden for everything because you obviously don't like them
you should blame the defense for that 9-7 record because they’re the ones who quit on the team after Kiffen said he was leaving. Offense played well, defense didn’t show up at all. Gruden and Allen’s drafting cost them their jobs, but I still think the best move would have been to just can Allen and bring somebody else in.
I'm not negative, I'm just telling you how it is.
hey Buc
sorry bud, TWICE now I’ve said I wanted Gruden here for 20 years(in discussions you were a part of). So, um, I guess I do like him.
& true, the defense did quit when Monte left. Ever think why(I don’t know, just speculating)…maybe ‘cause they weren’t enamoured with Gru anymore?
& again, who? Who is this magical GM? Remember, the goal is a SUPER BOWL…
Parcells is too old, & again, has never won a Super Bowl building a team.
Newsome in Baltimore isn’t going anywhere.
Kevin Colbert in Pittsburgh isn’t going anywhere.
Bill Polian? Maybe he’d be up for a new challenge(2 years ago), but would Gruden accept him(actually, if you say “your job or Polian”, he may’ve taken it, because he’d respect Polian, unlike McKay). But now, Polian is retiring after this year.
Scott Pioli? Yeah, maybe. Again, he was never the actual GM in NE, but he did win SBs with Belichick. Oh, but wait, Dom was never GM in Tampa, but he did win a SB. So according to your & Cracker’s logic—-we don’t hire Pioli(or Thomas Dimitrioff)either.
Jerry Reese in NY? Won a Super Bowl(with Ernie Accorsi’s team, but with some tweaks by him)the year after he was hired. Oh, but again, he doesn’t get hired here, if Crack & Nut are involved. They’ve never heard of him.
Holmgren? DEMOTED as a GM(ironically enough for a McKay acolyte, Tim Ruskell, who granted sucked). Holmgren as president(with a skilled new GM, a la Dominik)seems to be working out. Problem is, he wanted a veteran QB, & paid him a ton of money. Delhomme much?
Aaannnd that’s all, folks.
My point is—-you guys are being the more intelligent version of the lazy fan—-unless it’s a guy you’ve heard of, he’s doomed to fail, because he hasn’t won anything. & even as it’s pretty clear this team is improving by leaps & bounds WAY ahead of schedule(a schedule needed because of the terrible team building of Allen & Gru)—-you guys want them out. Lame…
& lest
the logic police rightly state…“gee, how can you ascribe to hiring a Dominik, or a Pioli, or a Dimitrioff, & deride a Parcells as a GM, when none of the above have build a Super Bowl winner? At least Parcells has experience turning around teams.”
True. But a Parcells would demolish the team, completely revamp it(3-4!), improve your record & culture, get close to the prize, & then bolt. We’ve seen this act before.
I find it brilliant that Shanahan is doing the exact same things he did in Denver—-get a mediocre veteran QB, have mediocre draft picks, & demolish the defense until you never get it right(the Redskin defense was just fine last year, oh yeah, built with 4-3 personnel). He is however doing ok with no-name runners, however. He does do that…
I’d rather have a script with the “new” guys who watched the Dungy & Gruden philosophies combine to win a SB before Gruden threw out the recipe. They sat back, saw what worked, & now seemingly are applying those principles. In theory(& in increasing practice), we’re getting new thoughts based on past evidence.
OR, we can just get close to a Super Bowl with a name coach. Plenty of casual fans already paid for that movie…& were happy the 1st two years.
The ultimate is Belichick. & again…neither Crack nor Nut would’ve hired him after Cleveland.
by liquidmuse3 on Nov 23, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
I am not sure you should mail in your MENSA application just yet...
you guys are being the more intelligent version of the lazy fan
I would love to hear what you consider yourself. I certainly know what I consider you to be.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 23, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
really big guy?
Sooo…especially since you love to dodge most of the points—-or simply just have nothing—-I think whatever I’ve said speaks for itself. Sad that you can’t talk or debate, but just go to weak “Morris Man-crush” nonsense.
You don't really have any true points...
other than your long-winded opinions. Again, you are heavy on the liquid, light on the muse.
We will never agree. This debate can’t and won’t ever be settled in this forum. I have made my points crystal clear – choosing proven experience over time-wasting experiments, and now this back-and-forth diatribe has become tiresome.
I still believe Morris is a stop-gap coach until the CBA is hammered out. I don’t see any contract extension for Morris as yet?
You continue to have your Morris – for now. Let’s all wait and see what happens after this season ends.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 23, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Ah.
Um, logically…wouldn’t I be heavy on the muse, if I have a “long-winded” opinion? Does “heavy on the liquid” mean I’m drunk while writing this? Really? Is this the best you can do?
My point is simple—-JUST because a guy has winning experience, DOES NOT mean he will attain greatness, i.e., winning a SB on his own, without a strong GM.
GRANTED, the odds are probably better that a Cowher will win a Super Bowl before a Rah would—-but I just hate the fact that you never give a guy a chance, & greatness never gets created & invested in on your watch—-you ONLY hire what is name brand, & THAT’S why I called you a better version of the typical lazy fan.
I’d rather take a chance on an up & coming guy from our staff(i.e., the winning tradition we BUILT here after so much crap), than some egotistical old-school guy who actually hasn’t proven he can reach the pinnacle on his own, yet would act like he did…
Muse [myooz] – verb (used without object)
1. to think or meditate in silence, as on some subject.
I wish you were far more muse-like.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 23, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
right.
the only way the points get refuted.
Well if you can find, quote, and link where I have EVER said anything about us needing to hire a SB winning coach.
Until you can, which you won’t, don’t mention my name.
I'm not negative, I'm just telling you how it is.
I was the one that said...
I wanted an experienced big name coach with a track record of winning. The rest is just a Liquid Rant.
Your assumptions are that Garcia would not mentor, or that Bill Parcells would demolish, revamp and get us close to the prize and then bolt. You actually speak as of these as true facts you have determined during your own personal Garcia and Parcells interviews, and not simply your own argumentative speculation.
You seem to think that because you HAVE heard of him, and give YOUR support, that we are guaranteed success. If at all possible, I don’t like taking chances if there is a far stronger candidate available. I believe you are confusing Morris’ coaching abilities with our butter soft schedule.
Raheem is clearly not inspiring ticket sales. The Glazers I bet have noticed that fact, even if you haven’t. Big name guys like Gruden, Cowher, Parcells, Shanahan, etc. = Ticket Sales = Mo’ Money = Happy Glazers
Get over your Morris man-crush… he won’t call you again.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 23, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Hey Crack.
I’m going off a record, just like you love to do—-
—Why’d the team let Garcia go? Why did he quit on the Raiders, & JaMarcus? Why has no team signed him, even though he’s clearly a winning QB?-Bill Parcells loves to impose his(admittedly winning)style on the team—-big lines, 3-4, conservative play calling. He knows he’s the preferred franchise architect(or @ least was for 10 years), & he will do it HIS WAY…which, when a team is losing, probably means jettisoning most of the team.
-
& again, facts—-has he won a SB alone?(No). Does he bolt after a few years, often only 2?(Yes).
I guess it all comes down to the Ravens game for you—-NOT the fact that this team was threadbare in terms of talent two years ago…NOT the fact that they have a winning record this year…NOT the fact that the team is clearly improving offensively & defensively in essentially the 1st year this collection of players has played together.
My point stands—-WOULD you hire Bill Belichick or Sean Payton after Cleveland & Dallas, respectively? I DOUBT IT, because they had done nothing as HCs, wouldn’t initially generate ticket sales, & therefore, are worthless to you.
How long did it take for Dungy to “fill up the stadium” in his second year? Do you fire him then?
Parcells is still in MIA...
and few can handle working with Jerry Jones and his meddling for much longer than that. Success follows Parcells like a dog follows steak. If the new team is a big loser, it probably needs gutting.
I would certainly hire Parcells, Belichick or Payton NOW – as they have clearly proven themselves worthy. It’s like you have some underlying need to prove to the world how clever you are by finding a “diamond in the rough” – when I would just buy the polished gem.
Insecure much? Napoleon complex? What is it?
by Cracker Ball on Nov 23, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
Nice try
Parcells walked out the building two weeks ago. He retired yet again. In fact, he gave up day to day personnel decisions probably a year ago. Read an article the other day that he didn’t even watch the MIA game @ home because he just get too antsy. So, um, no…
Was looking @ his resume ever since the Giants—-the most he stayed @ a place was 3 years.
But you wouldn’t have hired Belichick or Payton, & then there’s a chance you’d NEVER get to hire them, because the team that had the B*LLS to hire them in the 1st place would not let them go. Thank you for making my argument for me.
Ever wonder why these coaches are out there? Again, Parcells bails, & Cowher was there for 15 years(ahem, ONE SB win), & that was about enough. The rest tried to run the show by themselves, & were axed…yet, you want to hire them.
Insecure? No, just sick of your pathetic points, & silly namecalling. There ARE no proven GM/coaches who have won the whole thing by themselves out there not named Belichick. Yet you claim to want Greatness, while pining for Real Goodness.
& YES—-after so many years of wandering the wilderness, I was GLAD we took a chance on a mild-mannered DC who was denied a HC opportunity a few times, & a coach’s son who was only a lawyer prior…because they established, finally, a winning traditonal & philosophy that still is in the building to this day. So, YEAH, my god man, let the last vestiges of the “Buccaneer Way” find it’s footing before you hire some mercenary who hasn’t proven he can build a team.
correction
Build a Super Bowl winning team. Which as you said, is all that matters.
EASY bud.
How DARE I mention your name. Wow.
The fact is, you & Crack were essentially tag teaming in the Grizzly thread about how Dom & Morris were in over their heads. If I’m wrong about that, I’m sorry I guess. It eventually just became one stream of negativity based on 3-13, the schedule we’ve played, & the defensive statistics…while ignoring how young this team was, & the progress showed.
Who would YOU have hired?
See, you can't find anywhere where I said bring in a super bowl winning coach.
I'm not negative, I'm just telling you how it is.
point taken, bud.
Who cares. The reason you’re in the crosshairs is because—-who do you hire instead of Morris? Would you fire him after this season if they have a winning record & the defensive stats stay stagnant? Do you think Morris & Dom are in over their heads?
I want experience. I would have been completely fine with Morris sitting in the booth as a DC for a couple of years then getting promoted, but that didn't happen.
Who would I replace him with? Honestly I haven’t looked into it much. But of course I would look into Cowher, not saying I would hire him, but I’d look into him. I don’t know if Morris gets let go or not after this season, but CB and I have always agreed that he’s a fill in until after the CBA is dealt with and Gruden is off the payroll. There’s most likely not gonna be a season next year and everything that has been done the past two years will be for nothing anyways. Besides, I don’t see us getting such an easy schedule next time around, so a losing record will bring the axe, those seats need to be filled.
I'm not negative, I'm just telling you how it is.
...
At the risk of getting the “flip flop” label(BTW, what is that? Examining all the points, & ceding a few, makes my points weaker? NO, since I do examine all the arguments, it makes the conclusions stronger. Anyway…)—-I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the reasons Raheem was hired was the money they were paying Gruden, PLUS, the tentative CBA—-my point is, these were not the ONLY reasons—-when you’re in charge of a massive ship like that, again, you have to weigh everything—-& all of the above, PLUS Raheem’s mentor winning a SB(Tomlin), plus Raheem was an up & comer(he seemed to finish 2nd to McDaniels as the successor to Shanny, & he wasn’t even a DC yet), plus he was the last credible link to the Buccaneer winning past—-all these reasons are why he was hired, I’m sure…
WHEN would you look into Cowher? After the Ravens game? That’s why I hate this “debate”…I think even if we finish 9-7, that this team is building upon a philosophy of McKay/Dungy/Gruden, something that has proven to win once, yet couldn’t win more because all three wouldn’t work together. I guess this is why I’m fairly excited to see where this will go…
& CLEARLY
I was engaging with Nut in terms of the “Super Bowl winning coach” thread. I’m not even sure HE said that was a prerequsite, but he made the big point that “I just want greatness!”…so I extrapolated it to—-“Well, greatness is proving you can win a Super Bowl on your own”…since he thinks hiring a Cowher means a Super Bowl champion is on its way—-giving up on Morris & Dom. Too soon, in my opinion, & I made the point the Cowhers of the world just are not panaceas.
Ooops.
Engaging with Cracker Ball, I meant. Damn ;o)
the defense did quit when Monte left. Ever think why(I don’t know, just speculating)…maybe ‘cause they weren’t enamoured with Gru anymore?
Uh, maybe because the guy they loved to death just quit on them. Blame Gruden again, go ahead.
I'm not negative, I'm just telling you how it is.
Ummm...
Hey Buccy…the Glazers interviewed the players after the season. The other big reason why Chuck was let go(other than the whole “let’s not build a foundation” thing)was the players had generally grown tired of his style, which REALLY worked to get over the hump, but 5 years in, had grown stale yet abrasive.
That said, Monte leaving had more to do with the defensive(& team)collapse than Gru…I’m just saying, if Gruden was respected(& generally liked? I don’t think Belichick is loved, but I think he’s respected & liked)…I don’t think that team just falls apart…
Monte leaving had more to do with the defensive(& team)collapse than Gru
You’re flip-flopping again as usual.
I'm not negative, I'm just telling you how it is.
how so?
Just because one addresses every scenario doesn’t mean flip-flopping. C’mon, keep up.
Monte leaving meant what? That the players wondered who would get the job…that Gruden didn’t have a balance(as Monte WAS the head coach of the defense)…would they even run the same defense that they were all drafted to be in? Job security, et al.
Which all, on some level, DOES come down to Gruden…because he was the one going to make that call(ostensibly). & then the players were interviewed(why it took so long to fire Gruden after the year), & who knows who said what, but the big boys up top had heard enough to pull the trigger.
ironically enough...
Rah was hired to coach the defense, meaning the same system would essentially stay in place. & then the “interviews” took place, & Gru was STILL fired. Dunno. The players had had enough. Doesn’t mean they were right.
I love how you can’t see that I don’t hate Gruden. After the Raider game that year(the last game), even though I did want him around “for 20 years”…I did kinda think a change was needed.
Too bad that McKay & Gruden didn’t stay together…I still might take that over Dom & Rah, though—-Rah + Dom(better draft eye than McKay, IMO) + Olsen is really beginning to grow on me…
Everyone has shortcomings,
Dominik made key decisions to create a winning team to this point out of what was a dismal year in 2009.
About the use of ‘genius’- it would be better to not be so critical. It’s only football, I see your point. This is a game we watch to give us joy, lightening up wouldn’t be too bad of an idea.
Gene Deckerhoff is a saint.
Now if you said "Has he done a decent job"...
I would say yes. Has he made some bonehead mistakes – yes. Has he made some good moves that have helped the team – yes.
Can’t throw a word like genius around. You seem to be conveniently forgetting he was also partially responsible for that dismal 3-13 season.
Saying 'decent' doesn't give him enough credit
I’m not trying to praise him as a mind of our generation, but am clearly writing as a fan. He was in part responsible for the bad season, however he showed the fortitude and patience to make the unpopular decisions. He was willing to put an inexperienced team on the field that year and wait until it paid dividends once players grew.
Gene Deckerhoff is a saint.
He did
But he also made some dumb decisions. It’s fair to judge him on his whole tenure, not just the positives.
I'm asserting his positives have outweighed his negatives
significantly up to this point
Gene Deckerhoff is a saint.
The season on only half over...
lets play it out before we bronze him.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 21, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
The fact that...
this team now has a franchise QB, RB, WRs, & a TE…in the span of ONE YEAR…is something not even your hallowed Parcells could do. & again, he’s the man for finding Penn, Larsen, Crowder, White, Grimm, Biggers, & Watson off the scrap heap. It’s pretty amazing, but never good enough for you…
Being an upper eschelon team IS good enough for me...
but we have beaten NO ONE of quality. NO ONE. Have a little self -respect and raise the bar a bit. Don’t be satisfied by mediocrity.
This is an impossible debate to win with most here, because if I am not satisfied with clubbing the baby seals (like CAR twice, CLE, CIN, etc.) then I am labeled as impossible to please and a complainer. Just because I don’t recognize the 7-3 record as absolute proof we have arrived as a NFL power.
The 7 wins are from crappy 17-59 teams. The 3 losses are from 22-8 teams.
I do prefer the winning over losing. I enjoy the 7-3 record, but I don’t become smug or confuse it for something it isn’t. Act like you’ve been there before. The long time fans have been here before and also know what else can happen – and just how quickly. The “newbie” fans no nothing of the early suffering as the SB win was only 8 years ago. You were probably in the 6th grade.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 22, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
You know for a "realist"
you sure aren’t impressed with what’s actually occurred…
Did I ever say we are great as of this moment? Never did.
Are we mediocre, in terms of the talent assembled? Maybe today, but NOT in the future…again, the O-line is solid, & the skill positions are all probable elites. This is my point. Don’t lump me in with a herd/fan mentality that lives to shout “GO BUCS!!!” the minute we’re 1-0.
Cleveland beat the Pats & the Saints, & gave the Ravens, Falcons, & Jets everything they could handle. They are not a poor team anymore.
Cincinnati were a playoff team last year.
& we were literally inches away from beating the presumed best team in the NFCIN their dome where they are almost seemingly invincible.
I’m watching a foundation be laid, I’m amazed at how quick it is occurring, I’m watching a team play with passion & get better(COACHING), & I’m stating all of the above…while you’re harping on Reggie Brown & Brent Bowden.
As for long-time fan…um, I remember 1979, & what a “miracle” that seemed to be. I also remember us putting the foundation in place in the 90s. Don’t be so presumptuous about who you’re talking to…
by liquidmuse3 on Nov 22, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
I am talking to someone that attempts to flip-flop...
his argument when convenient. We are a better team. We are not at the level of a team ordinarily associated with a 7-3 record.
If you don’t want to be lumped into the leming pile of “we’re 7-3 so we must be good” then don’t defend the indefensible. We have some very difficult games coming up – BAL, ATL, NO, WAS and DET. Yes I said DET.
I could easily go to 8-8, which would be pleasantly unexpected, but after starting 7-3, would have to be a disappointment.
by Cracker Ball on Nov 22, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
haha...
it’s “lemming”, btw. Not that I would know. ;o)
We ARE good. 7-3 proves it. What we’re agreeing on is we’re not GREAT. Figure it out, man.
& the whole point of this debate is simple…what Dominik has done is VERY good, bordering on great(all things considered)—-& all you seemingly want to do is hold him down for drafting a punter.
When the F have I “flip-flopped”, exactly? I’m saying this rebuild is miraculous & impressive, &, the team is playing very well, all things considered. NEVER said we were great, but guess what—-we’re in the playoff hunt—-NO ONE thought that would be the case in rebuild year two.
& it DOES matter—-because if we just flopped around to 4-12 or 6-10 like most thought we would—-you get a better draft choice, but the young players don’t get NEARLY the confidence & experience(playing big games the rest of the way)that they will this year. Essentially, you’re saying we needed to tank this year, get Raheem & Dom out, & get a 70 year old Bill Parcells, OR, some other overrated coach who has NEVER successfully built a SB champion.
Funny you say my standards are low—-none of your “winners” EVER have built a Super bowl champion alone, except for Shanahan, & he never did it without Elway or T. Davis.
I want The Prize, I think there’s a chance(one I was willing to give, unlike you)this regime can do it, & I don’t want some “my way or the highway” old school guy blowing up what is clearly being built.
& no, I would never hire a Childress, or a Kotite, or even a Jim Schwartz.(just like you wouldn’t hire a Sean Payton), some banal assistant who “deserves a shot”—-I wanted a guy in here clearly on the rise, in tune with today’s players, but who is from the tradition of the system we built with Dungy & McKay….it seems we got Dungy & McKay 2.0.
As always…we’ll see. No matter what, this year has been a success, & I see us being an elite team as early as next year.
by liquidmuse3 on Nov 22, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
It does look that way
But it’s too early to properly evaluate the draft classes. It generally takes 3 years to know the true value of a draft class.
I've heard that,
I think it’s fair to say that a good percentage of players in the two drafts are contributing much more and much sooner than originally thought.
Gene Deckerhoff is a saint.
You can find examples of slow starts, the argument goes both ways.
Kellen Winslow barely played his rookie season from injury, Freeman didn’t throw accurately at all last year. Clayton was a one year player and Carnell’s injuries took him away from his talent. I still like Carnell as far as picking him in the draft is concerned, he was just unfortunate.
Gene Deckerhoff is a saint.
Injuries are part of NFL success and some players are more injury-prone than others
That was one of the knocks on Cadillac coming out of college, if I recall correctly. And one of the reasons why evaluating draft picks is tough early is because injuries very often derail careers.
And no, the argument does not go either way. Whether a player improves or regresses after their first year, their future is uncertain. Which is exactly why you always have to be careful to evaluate draft classes after just a year. Unless, of course, they’re all cut.
How does it not go both ways
Some players will have short term success and fizzle out, others take a while to get going, and I’m not just talking about the learning curve.
Look at how well Mike Williams is doing in Seatle. He’s been irrelevant for years- now he’s showing what made him a first round pick. Cedric Benson is another example, while he isn’t an all star he has shown capable of competing for a starting role and found moderate success with the Bengals.
Gene Deckerhoff is a saint.
The fact that players can get better or worse doesn't mean that it's safe to evaluate a draft class less than a year in
In fact, it means the exact opposite.
That’s what I meant by it not going both ways.
Freeman
had some brilliant “thread” throws, esp in his first game, often to A. Bryant, that made me believe he had something…
Clayton
was always too slow, & he just developed a mental block against catching or something(Gruden probably berating him, trying to justify the draft pick, didn’t help…again, the rationale to resign him—-they thought getting him away from Gru would help). Caddy to this day I still think is maybe more of a receiver, & not an every down back(as the injuries have shown)…another Gruden pick. Point is, a new guy with new parameters is in charge…
part responsible for the the 3-13 season
well what did you expect we were rebuilding we had to see what players we had who can usof in the future… from day 1 i liked when he gutted out the veterans and lets be honest besides brooks who else did we shed tears over i mean guys like galloway garcia dunn etc… were old fringe players…. his past 2 drafts gave us more good players than bruce allens 5 yrs of drafting… he made a few mistakes sure but when your taking over a team that had mostly old players, poor draft picks, and no real core players any gm is going to have their hands full and make a couple mistakes… we are in better shape than we were a couple yrs ago and domanik deserves majority of the credit
Wow..... getting pulled over is a sign of immaturity?
FOH…….. Maybe we should start signing. In other news, I dont think Dom is a genius. But he is so far doing a hell of a job. If he knocks this next draft out the park, then we might be able to start talking genius.
The immaturity is the fact that he was drinking
He blew a .061 and .065, which is clearly under the limit. However, he’s a primary candidate for someone who shouldn’t even try to walk the line. Williams’ character questions lost him millions as he slid into the 4th round, you’d think someone like that would be a lot more careful than what his incident showed.
Gene Deckerhoff is a saint.
Funny
“Since most of these guys are just now being allowed into bars, this could be a great sign for years to come.”
Although I agree all the way with the article I smiled at that remark considering the Williams DUI. :-)
GO BUCS
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