Getting younger - where is this team going?
by Sander on Oct 8, 2010 9:00 PM EDT
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PrintThe Bucs are in rebuilding mode. They're committed to a youth movement and trying to build a lasting contender. The Bucs are building through the draft. They're trying to run a team on the cheap by sticking with young players. A convincing argument could be made for any of these assertions, but no matter how you explain it one fact remains clear: this team is trying to get young, desperately.
That's been obvious since the 2009 offseason when the team cut long-time icon Derrick Brooks along with several other veterans. Ronde Barber, John Gilmore, Jerramy Stevens, Ryan Sims and Keydrick Vincent are the only players on the roster in their thirties. To go with all this youth the team is coached by the youngest head coach in the NFL: Raheem Morris.
But the Bucs aren't just going for youth, they're trying to develop players from the moment they come into the league and keep them with the team. They're currently starting only three players who did not play their first regular season game with Tampa Bay: tight end Kellen Winslow Jr., guard Keydrick Vincent and safety Sean Jones. The focus on the draft and undrafted rookies is obvious, as is the lack of spending on free agents.
The team is relying on youth at a lot of positions, and where it isn't relying on youth right now it has youth waiting in the wings - with the possible exception of the Offensive Line. with each passing game it seems new youthful players are getting more snaps and opportunities. Rookies Gerald McCoy and Mike Williams started the first week of the season, a win against the Browns. 2nd-year player E.J. Biggers got his first start of his NFL career in that game as well. The game against the Panthers didn't see the role of the rookies expand, but against the Steelers both Legarrette Blount and Arrelious Benn saw their first NFL action, and 7th-round pick Cody Grimm saw his first NFL start. Throughout the season we will probably see the game time of all the rookies increase.
The only 2010 draft picks who have not seen game action yet are 3rd-round CB Myron Lewis, who missed a large part of the offseason due to injuries, 7th-rounder Erik Lorig who has made a position switch from DE to TE and P Brent Bowden, who was cut before the first regular season game. Lorig could see some game action as early as this weekend, but Myron Lewis may take a while longer to get on the 45-man active roster.
With all this youth, the early-season bye week has allowed the team to try to work some of their newer young players into the gameplan. Brian Price, Arrelious Benn, Legarrette Blount and Kareem Huggins will most likely see their roles expand this weekend. These are all players who could turn out to be important parts of the future of the franchise. As such, keep an eye out for these young players who will see extensive action against the Bengals. This game will show us glimpses of what to expect from this team in the future. A win would be a very promising result, but the quality of play is perhaps even more important.
This is trying to get rookies to raise their quality of play. It is trying to get back to winning and trying to build a lasting contender. Whether this succeeds or not rests on the shoulders of these rookies. But what will this mean for the future? Well, I have a few predictions:
- Cadillac Williams will not play for the Buccaneers in 2011 as his contract ends this offseason and his role in the offense is being reduced.
- Mike Williams and Arrelious Benn will open the 2011 season as the starting wideouts.
- Ronde Barber will retire after this year, opening the way for E.J.Biggers or Myron Lewis to start.
- The 2011 draft will produce new Bucs starters at defensive end, safety and left guard.
- Stylez G. White will not be re-signed. His contract too will end this offseason, and the team won't be keen to re-sign a 31-year-old DE with nothing more than decent production.
- Jeremy Trueblood will also be gone, unless Trueblood manages to remove all penalties from his game. Trueblood is a good run blocker but struggles in pass protection. Moreover, his contract ends after this season and the team has a few young OTs it likes in James Lee and Demar Dotson.
- There will be minimal changes on the coaching staff. Raheem Morris will be signed to a multi-year deal, but sadly Rich Bisaccia will leave the team for a better position elsewhere.
How do you see this youth movement? And where do you think it will lead?
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I think the cheap thing is unfounded at this point.
I heard the team is taking all of there practice players on the road with them. That’s not a “cheap” move.
If you read my local newspaper, then you would reconsider what you said.
The Glazers are being cheap with the Bucs and Manchester United. It is not speculation. It is proven that they are cheap.
Completely agree
It’s hard to argue that the team is committed to winning when they have to stretch their necks completely 180 degrees just to look up at the salary floor. You can rebuild by adding veterans and it not backfire, just take a look at the Jets.
There are two problems with that line of reasoning
For one, they have added veterans to fill in: Kellen Winslow, Derrick Ward, Sean Jones, Keydrick Vincent, Michael Clayton. They were after Haynesworth too. The assumption that they’re not bringing in any veterans is untrue, but they’re certainly very hesitant to.
Second, bringing in veterans takes away snaps from young players and hinders their development – which is bad when you’re trying to build a core for the future. We don’t have the talent to win a Super Bowl now, we didn’t have that talent in ‘08 and we wouldn’t have had that talent in ’09 if we had kept all the veterans we had. The result of constantly brining in veterans is the team you saw in ’08: old, at the end of the line, lacking a core for the future.
The Jets are a bad example exactly because they’re not trying to do that. They’re bringing in every single veteran they can to win right now, because they have the talent in place to win a Super Bowl. We do not and did not have that talent at any point the past years.
No, it's not proven
It’s proven that they’re not spending heaps of money – but there are also reasons for that lack of spending that have little to do with being cheap.
That doesn’t mean they’re necessarily not being cheap, but it’s quite possible they’re simply following a long-term plan.
My argument is that you can rebuild with young players but have a mix of veterans as well
Building through the draft is the way to go for long term success, not arguing that either. But when you field a bunch of rookies without much veteran leadership you have no shot of winning.
The Jets have a perfect blend of young stars and solid veterans. They gambled on a first round QB (just like we did), but they didn’t rest on their laurels.
I think next offseason will be the tell tale. If they make some progress and finish up 6-10 or 7-9, then they need to upgrade talent in order to compete for the playoffs in 2011. Getting even younger would almost guarantee yet another year without a playoff win.
1/2 of the young players on the roster will not be in the league in 5 years. When you bring in veterans it raises the play of rookies that are competing for roster spots. All you have to do is look at the Steelers game. Veteran A would not have allowed that TD pass to Wallace. A 7th rounder most likely does. Now that Grimm got all of those snaps, he going to morph into some quality player? Not to pick out a particular play, but at the end of the day you get what you pay for.
It would be naive to say that purchasing Manchester United had 0 affect on the Buccaneers.
I think you can't compare the Jets because they never rebuilt
The problem is what happened when Raheem came in. At that point, there was very little left of a core to build around. Yes, Derrick Brooks was still there but he was far from the player he used to be. Ronde Barber was there too, and he’s still on the team. But there wasn’t a group of veterans or a group of rookies to build around. The team had to rebuild, now the team went about that very radically but there’s a reason for that: there was little left. That’s not the same situation the Jets have or had, they had a much better core of young players and much better veterans who weren’t two years away from retirement.
And I’m not saying purchasing Man U had 0 effect on the Buccaneers, but that doesn’t mean the owners are being cheap. Most of the ’00s were marred by salary cap problems that prevented the owners from spending money even if they wanted to. When those salary cap problems were over, there was little quality youth on the team and Gruden and Allen wanted to bring in old veterans to try to win instead of really building a core of young guys.
Jets have been rebuilding for 40 years.
"I'm going to unleash the offense." Raheem Morris (comedian and head coach of the Buccaneers)
Wasn't Gruden forced to rebuild after the first cap purge?
He did draft the majority of our present O-line,, he drafted Clayton, Caddy and only brought in the likes of Galloway/Bryant after our young guys couldn’t step up. He gets a lot of slack for not drafting a QB, but it’s not like everyone on the team was 40. I think poor drafting is more of a cause of the problem than choosing to go with veterans in some spots.
The O-line was the major building he did
Sadly, not even that seems to be working out all that well.
And yeah, the cause is absolutely more bad drafting (and some bad luck, like Caddy’s injury issues) than choosing to go with veterans. The point is, with the state of the team in ‘09 there was little use to carrying on with just veterans: there wasn’t enough to build around due to years of poor drafting and veteran stopgaps who had declined with age.
But who did they refuse to pay?
I just don’t see the cheap as much as not over paying for borderline upgrades. You bring up the Jets but FA know they have a good team and are playing there for a chance to win. You know some of there players are playing for league minimum because there last team are still paying them guaranteed money? We have to build a foundation before bringing in players.
The best part of having a young team
Is even after getting beat bad by the Steelers there is hope for the team to get better. By the end of the year we could improve dramatically. Back in the Gruden days there was no real hope for improvement once the season started you just had what you had.
I don't see Dom and Morris trying to improve the team...
during the regular season by adding good players as they have become available. It appears that once the season began, even under this new regime, we just have what we have. Which is a big bunch of rookies and younger players that may, or may not, ever really develop into anything.
by Cracker Ball on Oct 9, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
There is quite a list actually...
Recently or currently available players include:
WR Vincent Jackson, WR Randy Moss, OT Marcus McNeill, OG Logan Mankins, RB Marshawn Lynch. This is only a short list off the top of my head. There are many more. Each one is better than anything currently we have at those positions and there are 4 pro Bowlers in that small sampling. Point is, no one has been signed to improve the team. No one. What if our current young roster players don’t pan out? We sacrificed the vets for wins and have no true replacements for them.
It’s foolishness, ineptness or cheapness – or some combination thereof.
by Cracker Ball on Oct 9, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
None of those are easily available
They all cost draft picks – and the team is obviously very hesitant to trade away draft picks.
That’s where the assumption that it’s about money breaks down, really, because it’s also about draft picks.
Because we should just sell out everything for wins now!
None of those players are Free agents… that’s not cheap it’s holding draft choices in higher regard then disgruntle vets. This is just a grass is greener on the other side approach will result in a lot of unhappy vets and no draft pics.
BTW do really think we need another WR? Our second round pick hasn’t even started yet.
You're right... our second round pick hasn't started yet
which is also kind of a concern. A trade for a couple of proven players will not turn our draft upside down or anything, and you know exactly what you are getting. A draft choice can bust and you have nothing (see Mike Clayton, Dexter Jackson, Gaines Adams, etc.) so it makes sense to consider it for certain positions.
by Cracker Ball on Oct 9, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Trades and FA bust too
I mean just look at Moss to Oakland. They are better known but great players don’t become available unless they have issue’s. I know you want these trades to just happen but it is still rare in the NFL. We did trade a 2 for Winslow so I think they have proven there willing to do it if they can get a fair trade.
Btw
Of all those players I would want Mankins the most. Moss quits on teams and the San Diego guys would cost way too much in picks.
I think Mankins would probably help us the most...
but the idea of “Freeman to Jackson – TD” has to be intriguing to say the least.
by Cracker Ball on Oct 9, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
The way the team is being run now just reminds me of the 80's
Every year you think things will get better, but never pans out in the end.
"I'm going to unleash the offense." Raheem Morris (comedian and head coach of the Buccaneers)
I Like what the Bucs are doing
The Bucs got younger again this year and already are a win away from last years total wins. Sure the Brown and Panthers suck, but a W is a W. After years of not retaining or developing much talent during the Gruden Era, the Bucs have a responsibility to build themselves a foundation. I have no problem with them getting these young guys action. Let these guys get a season of experience and first team snaps and see what you have and then you can build and pick up pieces from there. Sure signing a big name guy could have helped us out this year. But hell look how the last big name we brought in panned out. cough cough…. Derick Ward. Even K2 seems to be a risk in the long term cause of his knee problems. Signing a shitload of known players doesnt win you games, Ask the Redskins. You have to have something to compliment those players. So let the Bucs build their supporting cast…. ie all these young guys and rooks then sprinkie in the stars,
If you look at Derrick Ward, at least after his Texans game...
he probably hit the nail right on the head with his comments. We are not committed to winning. We will remain fairly uncompetitive, perhaps even enough to cost Morris his job. But that still leaves Dominik in place however. The jury is still out on him, but he will be judged by his drafts which will take longer to evaluate. Coaches are easy – either you win or you don’t.
Ward looked good as a Giant, and Ward looked good as a Texan. Yeah… it must be Ward.
Also, I hated the veteran purge because it didn’t happen the way it really should have. When a younger player is playing well enough to actually TAKE a veterans job, then give it to him. That was not the case here. They simply made a decision to get younger and simply hoped the younger players would be able to step up – and management was incorrect. Younger is not better. Younger is just younger – and cheaper.
Giving up a 2nd or a 3rd for a Brandon Marshall or a Vincent Jackson is a true bargain to get a younger, yet proven player in his prime. Who would help our team more one of the above – or CB Myron Lewis? There is some trouble now in DEN with CB Champ Bailey and he could be traded for fairly easily, but will we? No… because he’s not cheap. Just a proven Pro Bowl player.
Ravens gave up a 3rd and a 4th for Boldin
Wonder if he was worth it :)
Too early to say... the Ravens look strong and will be right there at the end.
besides its a “conditional” 4th rounder. If he plays well enough, ARI gets the pick. I did not mention Boldin because he is more of a possession receiver and we need a tall, fast field stretcher like Jackson, Marshall or Moss.
Ward didn't exactly look good against the Texans
Yeah, he had the highlight run. But that was much more due to the Texans O-line and the Raiders completely inept defense than him. More than that, he’s only the 3rd back on that roster and has a grand total of 14 carries through 4 games. That’s hardly ‘looking good’, that’s being extremely limited by the coach.
Ward spouting off like that makes him come off as immature and bitter – towards a team that gave him a lot of money. I wouldn’t trust a word he says about this team because there are obvious reasons why he would want to blame the team and not himself. More than that his comments made no sense. The O-line’s been blocking poorly for everyone and not just Ward, but he pushes himself into the victim role. The team not being committed to winning – yeah, I don’t see that. I have seen this team give up only once over the past season and a half, and that was against the Steelers in the second half.
And yes, I think a player should take a veteran’s job instead of it being handed to him. There’s a problem there, though: if you have a lot of veterans who are slightly better and paid a lot more, you’re preventing the younger kids from getting better. Which is why they purged the veterans, not because they wanted to just hand young kids the job, but because they wanted to see if these young kids could play in the NFL. They got their answers: Black, Hayes, Stroughter can play, Piscitelli can’t. If they hadn’t cut Brooks and June last season, we’d see the exact same problem with Hayes and Black this year we saw last year: inexperience holding them back. Remember that these players improved a lot through the season as they got experience – and without that experience they wouldn’t nearly be ready to start now.
That was last season’s goal: evaluating and developing players for the future, not for that season.
There’s trouble with Champ Bailey? Never heard that. But Champ Bailey is also old. What you ignore is the longevity of these players: a young drafted player can play for you for potentially 15 years. Yes draftees can bust too, but the payoff when they don’t is much higher than the payoff of proven veterans. If you trade for Champ Bailey now, you’re going to get him for maybe 2 or 3 productive years, and quite possibly less than that. That’s exactly what this team is trying to get away from and what got us into this mess in the first place: short-term moves that will create problems once those players decline. It’s also what you see a team like the Vikings do right now: they’re trying to squeeze a Super Bowl from this season, and they’re going to implode after the season (if they don’t implode this year already). A ‘proven veteran’ is proven for the past, but players don’t stay healthy and good for years and years in this league and that makes trading away high-potential young players(ie high draft picks) problematic: you’re mortgaging your future to produce in the short-term.
I’ll contend that the Bucs could easily have built on the core of ‘02 if we either hadn’t mortgaged our future for Gruden and a few years of Keyshawn (two 1sts, hah) or if we hadn’t messed up our salary cap beyond belief. Those moves did lead to a championship, though, and I would never want to take that away. But it did mean that we needed top production from our draft picks afterwards. Unfortunately, that failed miserably and forced us to move to short-term solutions instead.
That doesn’t take away that trading for Marshall or Jackson or other young players could have been excellent moves depending on the price we’d pay for them (I think Marshall’s price was too high, for instance), although both had some character concerns. But there’s a difference between trading for someone like Marshall and someone like Champ Bailey.
by Sander on Oct 9, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
In essence, I think this conflict boils down to one thing:
If we could’ve won a Super Bowl in ‘09 had we kept on with Gruden and the veterans we had and tried to rebuild more moderately. I don’t think we could have done so, so I think that if you determine that a radical rebuild is the next best thing.
There is a current rift between Champ Bailey and DEN management
over his current contract/extention. He is still a very valuable player and would not cost anything near the asking price of a Brandon Marshall or a Vincent Jackson. Acquiring Bailey, for example, would solidify that CB position for a couple of years while we try to locate a worthy replacement.
Some of the younger players here may have improved somewhat, but that doesn’t necessarily bring them up to the level of their predecessors, or even where they could actually take away the veterans job from him. Thinking like that makes for throwaway seasons, just like last year. I am not really sure that Black and Hayes are the equal to Brooks and June anyway.
I also believe we need to get Josh Freeman a proven quality deep threat WR to throw at. Vincent Jackson is still out there dying on the vine. Some OL help like NEs Logan Mankins would solidify another weak position.
You are not trading away all of your draft picks, but obtaining a fairly young player that can actually play at a high level now, and continue to do so for a few more years, is better than the crap shoot the NFL Draft can be at times. We could easily turn out to be one of those teams rebuilding for years and years and never reach a competitive level. Someone has to show the rookies, by example, how to elevate their game. Some previously available players would have cost us nothing in the way of draft choices.
As I have said before – I believe it boils down to money.
by Cracker Ball on Oct 9, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
We do have a sorta good secondary depth in CB's,
It’s safety depth we lack. Logan Mankins would be good for cheap.
Honestly ain't I insane I think that's the way I gotta be
Ain't I so so supafly boy ain't nobody hot as me.
Mankins should be looked at
If the trade is a 3rd rounder I would say go for it… We could use OL help
Dreaming? Maybe but what a heck of a dream...
In 2012 we will start the season with one of the most talented and feared WR corps in the league. Benn and Williams will be a 1-2 punch the likes of which have only been seen by Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitzgerald with Straughter playing the Wes Welker role underneath. Freeman will develop into a Roethlisburgeresk quarterback (minus the tendencies towards young girls) who will be in the elite portion of the league. Blount and Huggins will provide the Jacobs/Bradshaw rushing attack that we see in NYC. The defensive line will be more feared than the Vikings line was last year. We’ll have an outstanding edge rusher and McCoy will be our emotional leader on the defense. It pains me because he’s such a stand up guy and I’ve been a huge fan of his but Ruud will move on and we’ll have a new middle linebacker flanked by Geno Hayes who will be established as one of the most feared LB’s in the game a la Derrick Brooks. Our starting CB’s will be Talib and Lewis who will be able to strap it up and cover any WR tandem in the league. Our safteys……………….. well tbd. All in all I think that if we correctly develop and coach up our guys that we could be one of the most feared teams in the league in 2 years… Realistic? Probably not. Not all of them are going to work out however if they did……
by T-Jack on Oct 9, 2010 5:26 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
... and if frogs had wings
The Glazers are putting too much faith in Dominiks ability to draft and Morris’ ability to coach.
… OR …
They really don’t care what happens because they are saving a crap load of money keeping the payroll incredibly low and were just writing off these last 2 years until the CBA has been worked out. If the latter scenario is true, and I quietly kinda hope it is, then we are only slightly more than a half season away from something big.
If they are holding out
and waiting to see if there is an NFL next year, then I could excuse them because then they will have had a reason for being cheap with the money and draft picks. I guess we shall see if a new contract works out and there is a NFL next year.
I don’t think the glazers care at all about the bucs
by Carlitin1988 on Oct 9, 2010 7:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Just not feeling the Spend more money, win more games philosophy
The teams in the NFL that are consistently good and tend to compete year in and year out build thru the draft. I’m talkin teams like New England, Indy, San Diego, Philly, Baltimore, Pittsburg etc. They build their base threough the draft, retain a big chunk of their players and compliment those players occasionally through free agency. Due to the the Gruden signing, where we lost picks, players leaving, the Keyshawn trade and bad drafting the cupboard has been bare for the Bucs. Signing free agents is a quick fix strategy that we have already tried. It didnt work. So why not reload and build some depth the old fashioned way, Have a group of 30+ guys who know the system and who know their roles and assignments, then add to that. In a year or two, I could see the Bucs going after some big name guys to help, but right now, I think they are a draft away from even needing to go that route. All the guys mentioned as free-agents were high draft picks that played all of or most of their years for one team. Sounds like patience pays off.
Keyshawn was brought in by Dungy/McKay, and it was a great pick up.
We don’t win the SB without him.
"I'm going to unleash the offense." Raheem Morris (comedian and head coach of the Buccaneers)
@ Bucnut1
I’m not criticizing the decision to bring in Key or his subsequent contributions. Just pointed out that bring him in and not retaining him in the long run also had an effect on the roster, in lost picks etc.
by Joe Grizzly on Oct 10, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, they (Keyshawn and Gruden) should have worked out their differences.
"I'm going to unleash the offense." Raheem Morris (comedian and head coach of the Buccaneers)
Sidenote
If the Bucs were cheap they would have surely traded out of the 3 pick and slid down into the 2nd round. They surely wouldnt have drafted a QB in the 1st round a year before, or payed Clayton Randy Moss-type of money, or made K2 one of the highest paid TE’s in the NFL. But hey who remembers the details. lol. Bring in Lynche, he can create his own holes. Bring in Moss, sure we just drafted tp WR who need reps but screw em, we can get them the ball around the time their contracts are about to expire, Bring in Jackson/ Santonio Holmes, he’s a deep threat and one drug test or dui from being Tanard Jackson. F_ck it. Why am I even wasting my time arguing this point. It makes too much sense. Sign everybody, trade all our picks again. We will be a contender in no time.
You can argue they aren't cheap with the amount they are spending
but look who they spent big amounts on. Kellen Winslow is good but certainly not worth being paid the highest in the NFL, not to mention his knee injuries could make him the next Antonio Bryant. Then you have Clayton and we all know how big of a waste of money that was. They were willing to throw a huge amount at Haynesworth but he is proving he is not worth the money the Redskins spent on him.
True. Thats where the inept kicks in...
Take a look at KCs recent success. Hire a good, young, PROVEN coach and staff yourself with 2 experienced OC (Weiss) and DC (Crennel). Then draft wisely and sign some skilled veteran players (Vrabel, Thomas Jones) and off you go.
The Chiefs are “NE West” and they are turning the corner already.
by Cracker Ball on Oct 10, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Its like a marriage... choose wisely
I liked the idea of bringing in Jags, but did/does he have any NFL experience?
by Cracker Ball on Oct 10, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Jags was auditioning for the HC job, Morris didn't care for that.
Jags prolly would have been the better HC, but we’ll never know.
"I'm going to unleash the offense." Raheem Morris (comedian and head coach of the Buccaneers)
Actually,
(Vrabel, Thomas Jones)
They are barely contributing, right now- that team is solely based on Scott Pioli’s success in drafting.
Honestly ain't I insane I think that's the way I gotta be
Ain't I so so supafly boy ain't nobody hot as me.
The veteran leadership in the locker room and on the field...
is what they give the team. I saw something somewhere about KC giving “coach like” powers to some team captains and HC Todd Haley himself gives much credit for this to their early successes.
by Cracker Ball on Oct 13, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Or, follow the mold of Hugh Culverhouse of the 80's, which seems to be the way they're going.
There has to be a good balance of bringing in the right FA’s, trades, and making smart draft choices. And if the Bucs weren’t being cheap, they would have brought in an experience coaching staff, made some nice trades, and bring in some nice young FA talent. No, we get Morris on the cheap, we make no moves other than bringing in other teams cut players, players who don’t fit what we do, coaches who don’t belong here, and we trade for guys who suck (excluding Winslow).
I think the cheapness is due to the potential lockout and new contract, and maybe their worried about the economy, I don’t know, but things aren’t being put together the right way, starting with management.
"I'm going to unleash the offense." Raheem Morris (comedian and head coach of the Buccaneers)
Jim Bates and Jeff Jagodzinski were experienced, expensive, highly-touted coaches brought in last year
Why does everyone keep forgetting that?
I'm still looking for the players we refused to pay because we are cheap.
I mean the rebuilding tag keeps most FA away. We have traded for Winslow, which shows they are willing to do it if it fits.
Most of the bigger off-season moves that would have helped us...
were trades anyway. Of the F/As, I really wanted either CBs Donta Robinson or Cromartie.
by Cracker Ball on Oct 10, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Neither of which has been very good for their teams, really
Or at least not worth the money they got. Cromartie has splash plays but gives up a lot in between those splash plays, and Dunta Robinson has been nothing more than mediocre.
Still bad moves. Jags is HC material, not OC and the thought of bringing in a DC who will try to play a system with a completely different type of player is retarded.
Not to mention that Bates usually only lasts a year per job would say he shouldn’t have been hired.
I don’t know how long you have been following the Bucs Sander, but this is the same exact type of crap that went on until Wyche came in and it lead to A LOT of losing seasons, cause it does not work.
"I'm going to unleash the offense." Raheem Morris (comedian and head coach of the Buccaneers)
My point was: that's all hindsight
At the time these moves were lauded as smart moves to bring in experience. Turns out, they weren’t smart moves. Experience, even previous successful experience, is no guarantee for future success.
I wasn’t around for the Culverhouse years, but I’ve sure heard a lot about them. I can’t tell you if there are similarities, but I can tell you that I feel there are a lot of reasons to be optimistic about the future, not the least of which is being 3-1 right now.
Not trying to start an argument
but who said it was smart to bring in Bates? I don’t remember anybody being happy about it, I know I wasn’t.
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 11, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't around this site at the time
I remember a lot of positivity about the move, though. Proven DC, had success at his previous stints.
The problem eventually was that Bates didn’t want to run what Raheem wanted to run – Raheem wanted a modified Tampa 2, Bates wanted his own man-coverage scheme. Or at least, that’s the story I’ve been hearing ever since he got fired.
Coaching
I think one of the worst parts of the team is the coaching and play calling. We can bring in all the talent in the world, but if you have mediocre coaches calling dull, played out series, then we are never going to get back to the days of winning seasons and division titles..
by BucThat Ransom on Oct 11, 2010 10:25 AM EDT reply actions
Amen to that
"I'm going to unleash the offense." Raheem Morris (comedian and head coach of the Buccaneers)
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